Aygor wrote:Which church?
Sun Fin wrote:Interesting, which branch of the Orthodox Church? The only one I’ve had contact with are the Greek Orthodox.
The Russian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate), under Patriarch Kirill. The nearest Orthodox Church is in Beijing.
Aygor wrote:Therefore, satan has nothing to do with all that is evil (other than he himself).
Leaving the devil out of the picture, are we responsible of our own sins, or is it our fallen nature?
Human liberty is constrained by many different factors. We can simply turn to our own experiences for this. Human liberty - true liberty, to choose the good - is limited by our environment and our biology. An addict or an alcoholic is less able, and thus less free, to choose what is good for him than a non-addict. It's the same way with sin, and the illusion that we are completely independent and do not need help.
Satan still has a lot to do with all that is evil. We are still responsible for our own choices, however limited those choices are by our state and by our previous ill choices. And Satan, the adversary, is constantly working to trick us into making those ill choices.
Sun Fin wrote:So I believe in the bible as God’s word and therefore completely true. However I also think that different parts of the bible were written in different genres. With this in mind I believe that the early chapters of Genesis are true, however not in a historical sense (ie I don’t believe in 6 day creation) instead I believe that the theological truths outlined in it are what’s true. Therefore when the metaphorical Eve takes the fruit from the tree of knowledge sin enters the human condition breaking our relationship with God. Therefore what original sin is (and I think WWD will agree with me here) human nature and it is human nature to rebel against God.
Yes, I do agree with that, in its entirety. But ancestral sin is more than that: it has diseased our very environment, our historical development and our dependency on that history. We do not bear the guilt of the sin of Adam, but we will continue to suffer from its effects (death and separation from God) until the Day of Judgement.
Sun Fin wrote:Yeah of course, so I was previously more of a Neo-Orthodox which meant I basically believed something very similar except that Jesus had elected to save everyone and it was down to us to respond to God’s grace. The reason I changed my opinion was that the teaching I received over this summer made it clear to me that this understanding is much more in line with the Bible which is the ultimate authority on God.
I would also be grateful for some clarifications on this teaching.
As stated thus far, it would seem to be directly at odds with the Creed - 'I believe in Jesus Christ, the only Son of God... who
for us men and for our salvation, came down from the heavens and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary', and also with the Gospel of St John 3:17: 'For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that
the world through him might be saved', and 12:30-32 'Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will
draw all men unto me', and also with St Paul's first epistle to Timothy 2:1-6: 'I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks,
be made for all men; for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself
a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.' (Italics mine.)
The idea that salvation is extended through Christ's sacrifice
to all human beings seems to be wholly in keeping with the Scriptures and with the unbroken Holy Tradition of the Apostles through their Church. But the mystery of salvation is that, as well as an
objective fact - Christ died as a ransom for all - it is also a
personal, life-long process. Christ's death undid the power of death over us, but it is still up to us, as St Paul said, to
work out our own salvations 'with fear and trembling' (Philippians 2:12), and work to restore that which Satan has damaged within us.
Aygor wrote:What I don't understand about your view is why exactly do you believe that this does actually prevent us from retrieving our path out of our own free will; even if original sin absolutely perverted our nature -which would appear to my ignorant self an hyperbole- that doesn't appear sufficient (to me) to inappellably force us astray from god.
It's precisely because 'our own free will' has been damaged by the Fall and turned away from God to start with, that it is not reliable to lead us back to God on its own. The choice before us is always, every day, whether or not to bring our own will into greater
cooperation with that of God.
. All that was meant was that whilst we are both nominally Anglican we come from very different theological background and as such we rarely agree when we get past the very basics of our faith. Whilst I believe you are wrong I have a great deal of respect for your knowledge about the subject as well as your skills as a debater.
But I wasn't lying about converting to Orthodoxy. I've been considering converting for about five years now, actually, and I'm hoping to be chrismated sometime after Paskha, in April.
