[HSM3K Project] Historical Satellite Map of the Three Kingdoms Project

[R.P. Gryphus]

This is why I am in favor of a Locations Editor. We could have entries for a location and tag them on a map with fields for coordinates. That way, we don’t have to edit the image itself to fix any errors.

That's a good idea, if James can implement all the necessary components to make such a map work. My intention was to provide James this map with all the locations, commanderies, rivers and other POI, but if he can add all of these elements through coding, I can simply provide him with a blank version with only the rivers and coastline.

I can’t give feedback on the map accuracy. I think, as you said, that, as a matter of necessity, is going to involve some guesswork and approximation. And I imagine it would be interesting to see what particular variations may be of note that may only be uncovered with some scholarly work.

But I did want to say it looks absolutely fantastic.

In some regions there tends to be some entities or individuals who became known for the remarkably accurate maps they produced. I wouldn’t be surprised if there aren’t really go-to references for this sort of thing as it pertains to China?

Thank you! Still, if you think of anything, any geographical features that seems to be missing, if you read or remember something from the text that doesn't seem to add up or being represented in my preview, let me know. I'll look into it.

[James]

That's a good idea, if James can implement all the necessary components to make such a map work. My intention was to provide James this map with all the locations, commanderies, rivers and other POI, but if he can add all of these elements through coding, I can simply provide him with a blank version with only the rivers and coastline.

Normally I’d have imagined wanting to make my own map, but your work, here, is just lovely, and I would be delighted and honored to use it for a project like this. To map locations I suppose all we would need to do is establish the coordinates on the 0,0 axis and the opposed corner, and map coordinates across the map with data provided. They could be rendered to the map with CSS, graphics, links, whatever seems nice. So there may really be something to this!

Some other ideas would be cool. Such as a basic locations version which shows the state of China for a novel chapter. Hmm...

Thank you for thinking of this project.

[R.P. Gryphus]

Normally I’d have imagined wanting to make my own map, but your work, here, is just lovely, and I would be delighted and honored to use it for a project like this. To map locations I suppose all we would need to do is establish the coordinates on the 0,0 axis and the opposed corner, and map coordinates across the map with data provided. They could be rendered to the map with CSS, graphics, links, whatever seems nice. So there may really be something to this!

Some other ideas would be cool. Such as a basic locations version which shows the state of China for a novel chapter. Hmm...

Thank you for thinking of this project.

Thank you, I appreciate your kind remarks! Yes, that's what I thought too, with simple CSS it can be done. Once you get the full map, with its resolution, it will be easy to find the coordinate (x,y) and pin icons for cities and POI (I would suggest a font icon like 'Font Awesome' since an image for each location might slow down the map download time).

Here's a little close up of the Central Plains meanwhile. I'm still gonna wait a little to see if anyone can pick a few mistakes I can fix before finalizing the map.


(open in another tab for bigger resolution)

[James]

Thank you, I appreciate your kind remarks! Yes, that's what I thought too, with simple CSS it can be done. Once you get the full map, with its resolution, it will be easy to find the coordinate (x,y) and pin icons for cities and POI (I would suggest a font icon like 'Font Awesome' since an image for each location might slow down the map download time).

Here's a little close up of the Central Plains meanwhile. I'm still gonna wait a little to see if anyone can pick a few mistakes I can fix before finalizing the map.

I imagine it would make sense to create little SVG graphics for whatever needed a graphic. That way there’s no need to even load a font. It’s always kind of interesting imagining how to take something like a detailed map, which can be viewed at high resolution, and present it in a way that is friendly for websites. But there are certainly options available. And even if there’s a file size hit, at last it (or even a font) gets cached. Many sorts of things could just be shapes (e.g. colored and gradated interactive small circles for small locations) rendered in CSS.

It would be interesting to see how locations with presumably known coordinates end up placing relative to nearby landmarks like rivers or the like. Assuming those locations are accurately tagged (e.g. based on modern-day discovery of remnants) that would probably end up being a very good way of finding out how things line up with geographical features on the map (e.g. discovering the path of a river has changed). But it would probably be challenging to identify those things before being to place a large subset of locations (unless something can be referenced which already features a wide assortment of coordinates and a map).

If that turned out to be a thing, I imagine there would be a choice to be made. Adjust the map (doesn’t seem easy) or just set a separate fudge coordinate that can be used to slightly nudge locations for actual presentation on the map (e.g. if they end up in the middle of a river).

It is an impressive project!

[R.P. Gryphus]

There's this site that could be of some help :

Three Kingdoms Locations

Edit : The link above is not really accurate for some cities like Jicheng after looking at it a little bit closer.

I made a couple of correction and addition to my map meanwhile :



Edit : Now I'm tracing the commanderies' borders.

[ZL181]

I have to say I like the progress. I think it can never be accurate because history can be lost…but I believe that if you and James can make an interactive map with this, that will be a milestone for mapping for this time period! Keep up the good work.

I hope it is easy to edit because in the distant future, perhaps I can translate some texts about Chinese locations for this. I will invest someday.

[R.P. Gryphus]

I have to say I like the progress. I think it can never be accurate because history can be lost…but I believe that if you and James can make an interactive map with this, that will be a milestone for mapping for this time period! Keep up the good work.

I hope it is easy to edit because in the distant future, perhaps I can translate some texts about Chinese locations for this. I will invest someday.

Thank you! Yes, now it is easy to edit, really easy. But I had to start all over because the way I started the project I used bad methodology that made it a nightmare to edit. But now everything is going easy and that's very satisfying. I'm looking forward for your relevant translation or if anything comes to mind in the meantime.

[R.P. Gryphus]

It would be interesting to see how locations with presumably known coordinates end up placing relative to nearby landmarks like rivers or the like. Assuming those locations are accurately tagged (e.g. based on modern-day discovery of remnants) that would probably end up being a very good way of finding out how things line up with geographical features on the map (e.g. discovering the path of a river has changed).

Also about that, the fascinating thing is that unlike what is more commonly believed, river naturally changing course is a very rare phenomenon (in the scale of the Huanghe). Not just in China, but worldwide. Unless it is caused by human. If it occurs naturally, the course of the river do not deviate that much and is more the result of accumulated sediment or becoming larger and eventually splitting up and after a while the water flow can potentially stop in one of the branch and keep going on the newer one. Drastic course's change like the Yellow River experienced throughout history is very rare. And that's why the coastline is different today than it was during the 3K. If it wasn't from these changes, the coastline would be almost identical. And one of the reason why this kind of river course change is so rare, on this scale anyway, is because of the nature of reliefs. Although climate change will affect the biomes, it will not affect the mountains, the elevation of hills, etc. Granted, mountains and such reliefs does change over time, but we are talking of tens of thousands of years, not just 2000 years. So that's why most rivers that existed 2000 years ago still exist today in their original location. The ones that do not exist anymore is likely due to human activity (like building dams or literally diverting a river), or because of other natural phenomenon such as dryness and typhoon, earthquakes, etc.

So for using China as an example, that's why the north of China or rather the central plains are different from how it was 2000 years ago, while the south of the Yangtze is almost identical to how it was 2000 years ago. Anyway that's my understanding and from what I've read on the matter, so that's the logic I've been following to make this map. But I'm obviously not a geologist or anything of the sort, hence why I'm welcoming any remarks regarding the accuracy of the map so I can look into it.

[ZL181]

You are starting to draw the commandery lines in Xu province so here’s a river somewhat relevant to it.

The Water Classic states: The Yi river comes out of Mount Ai of Gai county in Taishan [commandery]. It goes south to travel through the east of Linyi county, Langya [commandery], then it goes south again to travel through the east of Kaiyang county, then it goes east to travel through the east of Xiangben county, then it bends following the south-west stream in the county, then it bends south to travel through the west of Tan county, then it goes south again to travel through the west of Liangcheng county, then it goes south again to travel through the west of Xiapi county, then it goes south into the Si [river].

《水經》曰：沂水出泰山蓋縣艾山，南過琅邪臨沂縣東，又南過開陽縣東，又東過襄賁縣東，屈從縣南西流，又屈南過郯縣西，又南過良城縣西，又南過下邳縣西，南入於泗。

There are annotations to the Water Classic but it is very large so I gave you the non-annotated part.

[TigerTally]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dongting_Lake
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poyang_Lake
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dongping_Lake
Dongting Lake seems to be missing. Poyang Lake, or Pengli 彭蠡 Lake , should be much larger and in a different shape as well. Same goes for Dongping Lake called Daye 大野 at that time.