Li Ru - Loyal or a Slimy Rat?

[James]

Li Ru was a major advisor in service to Dong Zhuo (and a relative). Li Ru helped Dong Zhuo with many terrible plots and did not ever try to betray him.

My question is this. What do you think about Li Ru and people like him? If you feel he should have betrayed Dong Zhuo, as most people do, what actions should he have taken? What would you have done in his place?

(I won't share my views just yet).

[Zhou Gongjin]

I think he's the example of how wrong you can go as advisor.
Some of Li Ru's accomplishments include.
Dong Zhuo had high ambitions, and Li Ru abandonned all common sense, moral, virtue and decency, to help Dong Zhuo acheive his goal.
Dong Zhuo himself was not smart, if Li Ru had not been there, the Han minister would have schemed his death earlier.
Li Ru took the easy way out by murdering and committing other vile acts, instead of being an honourable advisor like so many others.
If Li Ru was really that smart then he would have seen that against the heroes of the Han, one stupid traitor would not stand, and he should have given up, but instead he made things ten times worse.
I have no respect for such a man.

[Iznoach, Legendary Dragon]

I think Zhou Gongjin about summed up the way I feel about Li Ru. However, I'd like to add this: how smart was he if everything he advised Dong Zhuo to do just made other people want to take him out? All his plans and actions just brought about his own death, and he could have been benevolent and lived a longer life. Also, he would have still controlled the court...Li Ru was not loyal in that respect. If he would have advised him to do good things, an alliance would never have shaped up against him and Wang Yun might not have plotted on him. Li Ru betrayed Dong Zhuo by feeding his ambitions, and therefore is a dirty rat.

[James]

If Li Ru was really that smart then he would have seen that against the heroes of the Han, one stupid traitor would not stand, and he should have given up, but instead he made things ten times worse.
I have no respect for such a man.

Devil’s Advocate time, heheh. What do you think Li Ru should have done given his situation? Where does the border of family relations come into effect?

[Iznoach, Legendary Dragon]

If he really wanted to help out his kinsman, he should have given him advise along a more moral line. What he did was dig Dong Zhuo's grave for him...

[Zhou Gongjin]

Devil’s Advocate time, heheh. What do you think Li Ru should have done given his situation? Where does the border of family relations come into effect?

Since nobody answer...

If Li Ru is a filial son in law, he would act only for the benefit and logevity of his father-in-law.
but, Li Ru was a weak character, and here is why.
Strong personalities are capable to stand strong against temptations such as money, rank etc. However, Li Ru made no effort to stop Dong Zhuo. Both Li Ru and Dong Zhuo were officers of the Han Empire, not very good ones but officers nonetheless.
Now instead of being filial and just, Dong Zhuo and his son in law allowed greed to replace whatever goodness they had in them.
I don't blame Dong Zhuo, because he was as stupid as a brick and he would have no ability to tell right from wrong, as long as it served his needs.
Advisors are not just tools for military campaigns, they often offer a moral counterweight to greed and misplaced thoughts. A lot of times, when they are ignored (countless examples in Chinese history) the ruler will lose sight on what is right and important.
Li Ru severely crossed the line when murdering Emperor Shao, the state mother, and his consort willingly.
After that, since both advisor and lord are corrupt, it's only fitting the heavens will get revenge.
If Li Ru was really that smart, he would help Dong Zhuo become a good ruler, if he cannot do that to Dong Zhuo, then it's his duty to his Emperor to leave.

[Mega Zarak]

hehehe...Li Ru could easily go and serve another Lord who was more benevolent than Dong Zhuo. If I'm not wrong, in those days, loyalty to the Lord has greater priority than loyalty to the family. Hence, as long as Li Ru did not officially serve Dong Zhuo, he still could betray Dong Zhuo if his Lord commanded him to.

[LittleConqueror]

Li Ru was like Dong Zhao, an idiot who let greed and power get over thier heads. He was only loyal to Dong Zhao so that he could attain his own pleasures. He certainly deserved his death when it came. If I was him, well, I would betrayed him. Cut his head off and run to the alliance. Since I had done morally coruppted (sp) things, I would blame all my horrible deeds to Wang Yun or someone else. Then, I would ran away from China and start a new life, since if I stayed, I would be killed eventually.

[James]

Heheh. Yeah, I agree. Li Ru was corrupt and twisted, he simply had to be in order to serve and even aid Dong Zhuo. Even more interesting is the fact that I think he was loyal to Dong Zhuo. I don't think it would have been too easy to make him betray.

I was hoping that some of the Li Ru supporters would come out and defend him. It always makes for an interesting discussion. Guess there aren't any of them here.

[Cao Ren]

i think that li ru was a power thirsty maniac that wanted money, power and other luxuries