Ancient Coins esp. Chinese

[Liu Yuante]

EDIT: If you want to go straight to scans of the old coins, scroll down to the next post.

This used to be a thread about antiquities in general and their history. For various reasons this has changed and it is for numismatics (coin-collecting, study and history) now, ancient coins preferably.

As the coins come in I will post some images here for people who may be interested. And by all means, this thread can be used for discussion of the manufacture of ancient coins of all kinds, discussion of your own collections, etc.

Adrian

[Liu Yuante]

EDIT: The Authenticity questions have been resolved, and everything, except the fake Jade cowrie still noted in the post a couple below this, is legit.


Here's the first ancient coin, a thin-type Zhi Bai Wu Zhu from Shu-Han (or the Minor Han Dynasty as many coin dealers like to refer to it):

http://www.geocities.com/belewfripp/zhibaiwuzhu.html

Geocities won't let me put the image right on the page.

Anyway, dating is not entirely simple on this one. We know that Liu Bei instituted this coinage to finance his expedition to avenge Guan Yu. Presumably Shu province was still using the Wu Zhu coinage of Latter Han prior to this. It was a mass issue but unlike with other fiduciary mintings earlier in Chinese history the Shu-Han government placed monetary controls that limited the inflationary effect usually seen when this is done. The coin means 'worth 100 of 5 zhu'. Zhu was a monetary measurement of weight, so altogether the coin was worth 500 zhu. It is read from the top character to the bottom, then right to left.

The duration of the minting is somewhat muddled on this. Some researchers and sources state that this coinage was replaced after Liu Bei's death by the Zhi Bai - 'worth 100' - under Liu Shan. Others state that the Zhi Bai was a Wu coin and that the Zhi Bai Wu Zhu was Shu-Han's primary currency for its entire existence. The weight of evidence and opinion seems to fall on the first opinion - that the Zhi Bai replaced the Zhi Bai Wu Zhu in Shu-Han after Liu Bei's death. No worries Wu fans, that state had several coinage issues of its own, several of which will soon be in my hands. As more coins come in we will see that there is still uncertainty over some other coin issues and whether they belong to Shu-Han or Wu.

But anyway and anyhow, though these coins are quite common for a two-year run in a smallish dynasty (which perhaps can be explained by the desire to uncover artifacts and mementos of the heroes of the 3K period), the majority place it under Liu Bei only, so we arrive at a fairly precise date of 221-222 A.D.

More to come as they come in.

Adrian

P.S. If you're interested in this stuff don't go rushing onto eBay and start to bid away or whatnot. I would recommend checking out the CoinFraudDiscussionList on Yahoo! Groups and reading through the back messages and also taking a look at some legit dealers' wares to get an idea of what real coins look like and sell for. I've learned quite quickly and there are certain dealers on eBay who are selling some outrageous forgeries. Learning coin weights and sizes is a very useful tool for guaging authenticity although many of the earliest Chinese coins have a lot of variety in size. Oh those goofy Warring States...

[Liu Yuante]

Here's another, non-3K this time. It's a piece of 'ant nose' currency:

http://www.geocities.com/belewfripp/antnoseghostface

This is the commonest form and is of the 'ghost face' variety. The real 'ant-nose' type looks like an ant walking on a nose due to the characters inscribed upon it. The reason for the 'ghost face' name should be evident as it looks like a face. I believe this example is made of jade - it certainly is not bronze, and generally the bronze ones are more expensive.

Some believe that these coins predate the knife and spade currencies and are the first true coins but I tend to side with the researchers who date these to about 400 - 250 B.C. so this is a Warring States/Eastern Zhou item. I read somewhere that they may have been principally used in the State of Chu, which also had some other unusual currency types that set it apart from 'mainstream' Chinese culture (probably due to the fact that at first the State of Chu wasn't even Chinese), such as squares of gold cast so that they were composed of smaller squares that could be broken off the main piece.

Despite not actually being coins as we know them, these are considered true coins for numismatic purposes because they bear the stamp or inscription of the issuing authority. Unfortunately, no one seems to know what that authority was. Fisher Ding reads the character as "Jin(?)", his question mark. I don't have any recollection of a character jin that looks like that - but then I'm not the archaeological, sino-linguistic and numismatic expert. Issuing authorities can range from the names of the states to the local city or county. The other possibility is that the character inscribed (the triangles are decorative and do not belong to the inscription - some types even have eyebrows!) refers to the value. Coole gives the type as 'Tang Ban Liang' (the source I saw had no characters and though I know which Ban and Liang are meant I'm too lazy to hunt them down), where ban liang is half of the current value of the liang weight measure. As one dealer notes on his website, "if we knew what grave they were, uh, taken from, we might know, but we don't."

Anyway, more later. Next week probably another coin from Shu-Han, a Wu Zhu minted under Liu Yan, and maybe if I'm lucky a piece of 'bridge' money. Also, I will continue to put the pictures first with very little text before them so those who want the photos and wish to skip my boring description can do so easily.

Adrian

[Liu Yuante]

EDIT: The Authenticity questions have been resolved, and everything, except the fake Jade cowrie still noted in the post a couple below this, is legit.

Here comes another. This is a Zhi Bai Wu Zhu c. 221-222 A.D. medium type, minted in Shu-Han under Liu Bei:

http://www.geocities.com/belewfripp/zhibaiwuzhumedium

Note the thicker rims, both outside and inside.

Throughout early Chinese history (Zhou to 3K) the heavier coins seem to be the earliest in a given series, and gradually they get lighter. This makes me wonder a bit about the historical production of these Zhi Bai Wu Zhu. But the thicker, heavier types are no larger in diameter, whereas early Ban Liangs (late Warring States and Qin dynasty) were bigger than their successors in both diameter and weight. Usually.

By the way, this is the first scan I've shown that reflects the true color of the item in question. The thin ZBWZ is actually a mostly dull, greenish color, though the patina (a protective covering bronze forms over time and exposure to soil, air, etc, which is often green, but can also be red, blue, sometimes even purplish or white) is not even, and some parts of the original coin peek through, especially on the reverse. The ghost face item is also green, not brown as the scan shows, and it is somewhat brighter than the thin ZBWZ. It looks like the whitish-green of some nephrite jade but it could also be another greenish stone.

The thing I really like about this particular coin is the heavy wear you can see on it - the dings, chips, even a worn away depression beneath the Zhu character on the left. The characters have been worn flat and the coin is even slightly bent. Though these are all defects I love them because it shows the coin was used - people living under Liu Bei's rule in Shu-Han actually used this very coin. That kind of intimate connection with history is, to me, wonderful.

Adrian

[Sang]

Can we buy these ancient coins?

[Liu Yuante]

I'm sorry if this wasn't made clear - this is a thread for discussion and information, not a sale listing. I only just acquired these coins myself. Right now it's just me but that isn't intentional, it's open for everyone.

EDIT: If anyone wants info on sources and dealers I will be more than happy to give info on people I've dealt with but you'll have to PM me as I'm not going to fill this thread with commerical info.

Adrian

[Liu Yuante]

EDIT: After having my coin images examined by some experts the cowrie listed directly below has been ID'd definitively as a modern fake. I have subsequently discovered this dealer is a known seller of fakes. All of the other items in this post were confirmed genuine by the same experts (and came from other dealers than the cowrie seller).


A big bunch came in today. First, a cowrie imitation carved from jade:

www.geocities.com/belewfripp/jadecowrie

Next, some Eastern Han Wu Zhu that have been worn pretty well, the outer rims have mostly disappeared:

www.geocities.com/belewfripp/ehanwuzhu

The one on top has a vertical bar on top. Many, many Wu Zhu have scratches in the coins indicating numbers but this bar was clearly part of the casting. No idea what it signifies. Maybe a lousy moldsmith.

Now some better quality Eastern Han Wu Zhu:

www.geocities.com/belewfripp/ehanwuzhuvariants

The one on top has a mold error that can be seen on the Zhu character on the left. If you look closely at the phonetic root part of the character (the right part that looks kind of like a double-sided pitchfork) you can see an extra vertical line on the top and the radical also appears to have some duplication and extra thickness on some of the horizontal strokes. The one on the bottom has a dot on the reverse. This is not an accident, it's there for a reason, others of this type exist in quantity. Nobody seems to have any idea what the significance is, however.

Next, a Western Han Ban Liang:

www.geocities.com/belewfripp/whanbanliang

This coin is pretty well encrusted. When I scanned it, on my wife's computer, it looked pretty clear and you could make out the remnants of the two characters. My computer is less bright and it doesn't show as well. I will hope your monitor is brighter than mine. Here's what the characters look like nowadays (in traditional characters):

liang(on the left) 两 ban (on the right) 半

That isn't what they looked like then, the top diagonal strokes on the ban were rounded, like corners, but maybe this will give you an idea of what you're looking for on the photo as far as the remaining visible portions.

Finally, a Warring States Ban Liang:

www.geocities.com/belewfripp/warstatesbanliang

The scan of the obverse stinks, and the reason is because this coin has some very large, prominent characters. They push the coin up off the scanning surface and are lopsided to boot so it doesn't scan evenly. I had to rotate the image because it went somewhat crooked during scanning. It should still give you a good idea of it though the coin is a lot nicer in person. The reverse has some interesting red patina in the top left.

I'm going to divide this into two posts, the next one will be about the history of these coins. The Wu Zhu is one of the most successful coins in Chinese history and the Ban Liang lasted a good while, too.

Adrian

[Liu Yuante]

Ok, history time. Let's start with the cowrie since it is probably the earliest.

In extremely ancient times in China cowrie shells were used as one form of currency. This practice probably predates the Shang dynasty and may stretch back into the 3rd milennium B.C. In the very earliest times actual cowrie shells were used, often with the backs filed away so that they could be strung together. As society became more organized and centralized, not to mention practical, they began manufacturing their own currency in the shape of cowries. The earliest ones were carved from stone, crudely at first and using mostly sandstone and alabaster, then over time being carved from other stones such as jade, soapstone and mother of pearl. There is no real strict progression here, probably different types were carved from different stone types in many overlapping periods. Later cowrie imitations were carved from bone and also were made from clay. By the time of the Warring States period they were making cowrie imitations from cast bronze and eventually they evolved into the ant nose and ghost face money.

Most likely this piece dates from the Spring & Autumn period, c. 600 B.C. The holes do not go all the way through, meaning it could not have been strung. Some pieces are like this, and I have also seen ancient 'ring money' with incomplete center holes. Possibly the carver didn't bother, possibly it wasn't meant to be strung (grave offering?).

Moving on to the Ban Liang, this type of coin was one of the early round coins with square center holes. The Yuan coin of much earlier had a round hole, and there were also some other early square-hole coins, such as the Yi Dao. Speaking of the Yi Dao, I was incorrect when I stated that it unusually was read from left to right. I had gotten this idea into my head from seeing some specimens that were cast incorrectly, i.e. backwards. They read right-to-left, just as with everything else Chinese.

Anyway, the Ban Liang probably became uber-prominent over other coins of the time because of where it was minted - the state of Qin. They began to be cast in the early 4th-century B.C., approx. 390-380 B.C. As mentioned earlier, as time wore on they became smaller and lighter. Generally speaking, any Ban Liang 32 mm or greater in diameter and greater than 10 g in weight are pre-unification Qin state coins. During the last years of the Qin dynasty (such as it was) the coins had come down to about 6-8 g in weight on average and about 30-32 mm in diameter. This weight and diameter continued, on average, into Han during the reign of Emperor Gaozu of Han, Liu Bang. During the regency of Empress Gao they became smaller and lighter and gradually came down in size to as small as 20-22 mm and 2-3 g in the decades that followed. Finally, around 140 B.C., soon after the ascension of Emperor Wu, the Ban Liang was discontinued and the minting of the Wu Zhu was begun.

That is a nice, neat little history and so of course it can't be entirely true. There were local mints throughout the state of Qin and in China as a whole after the unification of the country under the First Emperor of Qin. These local mints often made variant Ban Liangs that might, say, be 33 mm in diameter but only weigh 4 or 5 g. Diameter is usually a good guide through these. If it is light but big it is probably not a Western Han Ban Liang from after the reign of Liu Bang. The transition period of the final years of Qin through the reign of Liu Bang are pretty much impossible to seperate so far as Ban Liang sizes and weights. Generally speaking, if the coin is under 30 mm in diameter it is definitely a Western Han issue. It is important to note that these figures are most trustworthy when dealing with averages - individual coins could vary somewhat.

There is also an alternate series of attributions proposed by Wai San Doo based on archeological evidence, stating that the primary classification should be weight, followed by size. In this way 20-10g, 28-34 mm are mid-Warring States, 8.5-7.5 g and 28-29 mm are late Warring States, 6.4 g and 22 mm Qin, 3-4 g and 22 mm Qin counterfeits and early Western Han, anything smaller Western Han.

The Warring States Ban Liang shown is 32 mm and 11.5 g, making it one of the earliest, dating somewhere between, say, 380-330 B.C by either attribution method. The Western Han Ban Liang shown is 33 mm but only 6.5 g. It is possible it is a pre-unification local variety from Qin state or an anomalously large coin from the same period according to Doo's attributions, or an anomalously small coin from 390-380 B.C. but given that the former attribution method accomodates for coins as big as early types but not as heavy, I agree with the dealer's attribution of Western Han (reign of Liu Bang only), though it could also be late Qin.

Wu Zhu info will come later, as it is at least as involved as all of this and I've done enough typing for one night.

Adrian

[Liu Yuante]

Some images first:

www.geocities.com/belewfripp/ehanwuzhuvariants

Two more below the ones posted earlier, the first one is a regular old Wu Zhu that has been inscribed with a triangle on the top of the obverse. The reverse has a sideways Ba 八 eight on top and a sideways Er 二 two on the bottom. I'm inclined to turn it 90 degrees counter-clockwise and read it as 28 but for all the commoness of these inscribed Wu Zhu it is hard to know who, when or why the markings were made. The other one is a late minting from Shu Province under the Inspectorship of Liu Yan. Apparently these are frequently found with Shu-Han coins and they are similar in style and the way they feel in one's hand. Apparently the area retained a similar casting process through the years.

www.geocities.com/belewfripp/whanbanliang

Finally some nice, scannable Ban Liang to show. Not as cool as the monster Warring States item these are still quite nice, from the end of the coin's run in Western Han. Some of the bronze is still visible and shiny and there's some neat marbled patina on one. Inexpensive and common as dirt but still lovely nonetheless.

www.geocities.com/belewfripp/zhoubridge

This is a pretty plain piece of bridge money but that's all I could afford. From what I understand, at some point during Zhou times jade chimes were made in this shape and design. Because the chimes were considered valuable, apparently they took to casting imitations in bronze, which is what these 'bridge' money pieces are. Some people think they were used as burial offerings only, other people think anything small and made of bronze in the Zhou Dynasty was potentially money.

www.geocities.com/belewfripp/yidao

Here we go. I've mentioned it, I made mistaken statements about it, here's one I can actually show. This is a Yi Dao, one of the early round coins with square holes. These date to early 3rd-century B.C., pre-Qin unification but later than other early round coins. An alternate reading of the insciption is Yi Huo, but either way it means "one knife". Bronze knives cast as currency were used extensively in Eastern Zhou times (they were knife-shaped, not actual knives). A slightly earlier coin simialr to this was the Ming Dao or Huo, meaning Ming knife and that was a late type of knife currency. Apparently these were intended to be of equivalent value.

www.geocities.com/belewfripp/huoquan

These are currency from the Xin dynasty (Wang Mang the Usurper). Wang Mang is a great example of a guy with the best of intentions paving his country's pathway to hell. I look at his ideals and what he wished to do and say, yes, this is good. But he was unable to do it, and his fiduciary, bronze currency became inflated - and then counterfeited - so quickly that it became worthless. Wang Mang's period has probably the highest ratio of types of currency to number of years. At least three different round coins, the "pants"/spade money (they look like what they sound like), "key" money - truly, when the money supply is wonked a country plunges into darkness quickly. And then he spent the last 6 months or so of his reign kicking back in his harem, cramming in a few last good times while the Han army led by the future Emperor Guangwu marched inexorably onward. Wang Mang's face should be next to the word tragic in the dictionary.

Anyway. These coins are in excellent condition, you can see some of it in the photos but extensive areas of bronze are shiny and visible on the coins, especially on the high points. They were part of Wang Mang's fifth and final currency reform in A.D. 14 so these are from between then and 21 A.D. These are very well minted coins, maybe the best up to that time in Chinese history, with not just rims, but rims that have a sort of slant curve away from the coin. One was equal to one Wu Zhu. Immediately devalued by counterfeiting these coins became officially worthless in 41 A.D. when the Han government decreed them no longer legal tender.

Adrian

[Liu Yuante]

Some more coins have come in - some early, early stuff, some Wang Mang, some more 3K, including my first Wu coin - but no scans ready yet, but I want to clarify something that is important to understanding not just ancient Chinese coins but also all ancient coins and even modern currency. and that is the difference between a fiduciary issue and a full-weight issue.

A full-weight issue is a coin whose stated value is the same as the intrinsic value of the substance of which it is cast. For example, if an ounce of pure gold were worth, say, $100, and a 1 oz. 24k gold coin were minted and given the value of $100 that is a full-weight issue. In the early days, late Spring and Autumn and all of the Warring States period, everything was, for the most part, full-weight. Spades, knives, etc. Changes in early coinage can be categorized and traced back to shifts in weight standards from 12 to 10 zhu. Not everything was, of course - cowrie imitations notably, and also coins like the Yi Dao, whose value was equivalent to one knife (probably of the Ming - bright - variety. During the Qin Dynasty, Shi Huangdi abolished all the other currencies and made the Ban Liang the sole currency and insisted on strict weight value. This is why the earlier Ban Liang are so big - the copper/bronze of which the coins were cast was actually worth half of whatever a liang was at the time.

In Western Han the coins got lighter and still bore the Ban Liang legend though they were not made up of that much metal anymore. They tried to introduce a San Zhu coin but the people didn't go for it, apparently used to Ban Liang. so they went back to the Ban Liang but used a 3 zhu weight standard. This was essentially still a full-weight issue because the Han government made no pretensions to the coins being worth half a liang. The legend was apparently retained for familiarity's sake. Then they finally scrapped it and introduced the Wu Zhu and again the coin was comprised of five zhu worth of the metal of which it was cast.

Then Wang Mang came along and issued coins with a face value far in excess of their intrinsic value, and these were thus a fiduciary issue. Modern money is almost all fiduciary; the paper on which a dollar bill is printed is not worth anything even close to a dollar. We accept it at that value because we trust that it will be accepted at that value and so when the government says it is valued at that amount we go along with it. In the early Chinese dynasties fiduciary issues went more along the lines of government produces the coins, government states they are worth xyz amount, the people refuse to go along with it, the coins won't trade at the stated value, inflation goes through the roof and the economy goes straight to hell. Oh, and counterfeiting. Lots of that, too.

Anyway, after Wang Mang was killed the Han restored the Wu Zhu. As an aside, the Wu Zhu may be the most succesful coin in Chinese history, having been used from Western Han up to the start of Sui. Anyway, the Wu Zhu continued as a full-weight issue but then in the Three Kingdoms period experiments were made using fiduciary issues again. These were done by Shu-Han and Wu, both of which had need of money and neither of which, accordingly, used full-weight coinages. The metal a Zhi Bai Wu Zhu was made of was worth nowhere near 500 zhu and the Da Quan Wu Bai ("big coin 5 100" - or 500 zhu, also) issued under Sun Quan in Wu (of which a very nice specimen is on its way to me) was also of a much higher face value than the actual metal value. In the early days of each dynasty the inflationary effects were kept under control but eventually things got out of hand, probably earlier in Wu as a 5000 zhu coin was also issued.

Notably I have not mentioned any Wei dynasty coins, and there's a reason for that - there aren't any. Wei ratained the full-weight Wu Zhu issue of Hanand thereby avoided inflationary troubles for the most part. Economics is often not looked at in detail but this seems like a big deal to me - Shu-Han and Wu ended up with weak, inflated currencies while Wei did not. And everything comes back to money - it is the foundation of government, of defense, and ultimately is the source of a ruler's power. No wonder Wei never fell on the battlefield but shu-Han and Wu were invaded and conquered.

But anyway, that's the difference between a fiduciary and a full-weight issue.

Adrian