Shield of Rohan wrote:I am of the opinion that both Liu Bei and Sun Quan contributed fairly equally to the victory at Chibi.
Well I'm not trying to really say who did more or who did what, merely that the claim that Liu Bei was the one to defeat Cao Cao without significant Wu involved, as one could surmise from Cao Cao's bio, is not true. To go into a little more depth right now, the tradinational thought of the battle of Chi Bi, the "huge fire" actually occured at Wu Lin, right across the river from Chi Bi. Like all big campaigns and battles, it is the name "Chi Bi" that the campiagn gets attributed to and some bios only say that Cao Cao was defeated at Chi Bi, really just breezing over the real details. Up to Chi Bi and right after the burning at Wu Lin, I would agree with your statement. It seems like the forces were able to join together and effective stop Cao Cao in his tracks at Chi Bi and then later pursue using both forces very well. However the actual burning that occured at Wu Lin, was a product of Huang Gai. Not to take credit away from Liu Bei forces, but it was a solely Wu operation. There is no knock to the Shu troops, just rather a statement of the facts.
But Sun Quan did not initiate the alliance any more than Liu Bei did. It was Lu Su that went on his own idea to Liu Bei and told him to stand with Sun Quan, and Lu Su that convinced Sun Quan to stand with Liu Bei. Lu Su brought the alliance together.
Heh, here I am generalizing with just a higher up name instead of specifying. Yes, it was Lu Su that really made things happen, however it was Sun Quan who agreed to the plans and ordered them put into motion. In a slightly more detailed sense, Sun Quan was the first to send an officer to propose and alliance, that officer being Lu Su whom convince Sun Quan to send him.
[quote=Sam]The events at Chibi are not wholly known; there are far too many contradicting sources to establish anything concrete. I never like to get into discussion of Chibi simply because there are far too many people throwing quotes around from various Wu, Shu and Wei biographies - you can draw conclusions from what you read, but those conclusions certainly can't be labelled as facts. If anything, we should just keep to what we know happened at the battle - the division of forces and how much credit should be given to each will most likely remain as speculation.[/quote]
I think that you have been disillusioned by the frivolous and destructive debating tactics of the past. When people want to prove that their side did everything or the other side did nothing, they start throwing around sources acting like they are rigid, inflexible, whole truths and the other are wrong, when in actuallity they are not that rigid and can easily be put together. With a nice casual reading of Liu Bei and Zhou Yu's bio you'll find that they do agree on pretty much everything. Zhou Yu's bio does mention a combine Sun-Liu force stalemating Cao Cao at Chi Bi. Zhou Yu's bio also mentions that Cao Cao's men were beginning to feel the plague that would later hit them even harder. The fire attack was a Wu manuever but the Wu bios mention that right after Liu Bei was right there to pursue with Wu. Now if you were to take things far too rigid you'd say that Liu Bei's bio said that "Liu Bei and Zhou yu burned Cao Cao's navy". However, looking at all the other bios it's not hard to be able to see that it's talking in general sense and not specific sense. It's merely saying that the Liu-Sun alliance was able to burn and defeat Cao Cao. Not that Liu Bei and Zhou Yu personally led the fire attack.