Bigger Victory: Chi Bi or Yi Ling?

[Mikhail]

Both of these victories were won against an army that seemed like they unstoppable at the time. As most of the people know, Cao Cao was defeated in Chi Bi (AKA Battle of Red Cliffs) and Liu Bei was defeated in Yi Ling. In both cases, fire was used to eradicate their enemies.

They were both primarily Wu wins (though Chi Bi was an allied defence, the fire attack was made by Wu, which is what im focussing on right now). Chi Bi happened when it looked like Cao Cao was about to unite the lands himself, until he was checked by the Sun-Liu Alliance. Cao Cao's 200,000+ troops were horribly beaten by the Sun-Liu's 50,000 troop army. The Wu army, led by Zhou Yu, used a fire attack that swallowed most of Cao Cao's troops on their chained ships. The Liu Army was stationed to smite Cao Cao's troops as they made their retreat. Territories also changed during this victory, as Liu Bei captured some Jing prefectures, a move which ultimately led to the battle of Yi Ling. Chi Bi is probably the most famous battle in the Three Kingdoms Era.

Now onto Yi Ling. This was not as big as Chi Bi, but in my opinion it was a very important battle. (The novel stated that Liu Bei had extremely high morale at the time because they won many small battles. Not sure historically though). In this battle, fire again was used by the Wu army, led by Lu Xun, against Liu Bei's forces. The Wu army burned the Shu camps which in turn caused tons of casualties for the Shu army. I don't know how many soldiers Liu Bei had before the attack but Wu had around 50,000 soldiers to repel the attack. Many Shu officers died during this battle, like Shamoke and Ma Liang, while they lost Huang Quan because he surrendered to Wei. No territorial gains happened during this victory. Now it doesn't sound as impressive as Chi Bi, but I thought it was important because I thought it was the beginning of the end for Shu as shortly after, Liu Bei perished.

So in your opinion, which was the bigger victory? Chi Bi, Cao Cao's reality check? or Yi Ling, Liu Bei's bane?

[AoA-71088]

Yi Ling bigger victory, since it helped signal that Shu's demise was near

[barbarosso]

I'd say Chi bi, not because cao cao got some bad sunburn, but because it proves that Wu and Shu can work together,

[Cao Ah Man]

Yi Ling. The battle helped lead to Liu Bei's death, whereas Cao Cao got away and was free to stabilize the north, crush Ma Chao, and strengthen his position. After Yi Ling, if Kongming wasn't there, then they'd have been SO screwed....

[No Bu]

Chi Bi because if Cao Cao would've won he'd have a foothold in the south increasing the chance of him conquering Wu.

[Jiangji]

Surely Battle chibi. Without it there will be no three kingdom formed and cao cao could united china at that point.

[urbanterrorist]

No doubt Chi Bu. It is exactly as Zhang Liao says in the Battle of He Fei cutscene.
"Superior numbers do not mean anything in the battlefield. Guan Du! Chi Bi!
Remember them WELL!

The battle of Chi Bi was the perfect example of how a smaller forces with the luck and genious of talened officers can destroy the much larger forces who are better prepared.

[Shield of Rohan]

They were both primarily Wu wins (though Chi Bi was an allied defence, the fire attack was made by Wu, which is what im focussing on right now). Chi Bi happened when it looked like Cao Cao was about to unite the lands himself, until he was checked by the Sun-Liu Alliance. Cao Cao's 200,000+ troops were horribly beaten by the Sun-Liu's 50,000 troop army. The Wu army, led by Zhou Yu, used a fire attack that swallowed most of Cao Cao's troops on their chained ships. The Liu Army was stationed to smite Cao Cao's troops as they made their retreat. Territories also changed during this victory, as Liu Bei captured some Jing prefectures, a move which ultimately led to the battle of Yi Ling. Chi Bi is probably the most famous battle in the Three Kingdoms Era.

Since when was Chibi primarily a Wu win? It states in historical records that Sun Quan sent some twenty thousand elite troops to fight Cao. Liu Bei had at least that number in elite followers, though likely only fifteen thousand or so in the battle as some still had to defend the rear in Jiangxia. The combined Liu-Sun force met Cao in battle and thanks to the fire attack (which Kongming proposed) hurt Cao's army morale, already reeling from disease and poor training. Therefore, the combined force of the elite soldiers of both lords was able to win. This battle was much more influential than Yiling. Chibi prevented Cao from quickly reunifying the land under his dominion, as his victory would have virtually guaranteed total conquest within the decade. Yiling was just a reflection of a draining and misguided Shu-Wu war that would have had the same effect had Shu won. Both would have still been crippled, unable to overpower Wei even together.

Hanzhong was as great a battle as Yiling, and more impactful in that it established the rise of Shu kingdom.

Jieqiao was also a great battle, impactful in that in prevented a quick victory over the lords by Gongsun Zan.

Yi Ling bigger victory, since it helped signal that Shu's demise was near

And therefore Wu's demise.

I wouldn't call Yiling Liu Bei's bane, but more like the bane of the Three Kingdoms. Eliminating the momentum against Wei, it paved the way for costly and continual warfare that brought Jin to power. Sima Zhongda and family have the last laugh .

[Elitemsh]

Chi Bi was way more important. Chi Bi stopped Cao Cao's campaign south, if the allied forces lost then Cao Cao would definitely have united the land. Although Yi Ling was important, even if Liu Bei won his forces would have been exhausted. Chi Bi would have caused the destruction of both Liu Bei and Sun Quan and thus two kingdoms whereas Yi Ling would have only destroyed Wu and even that is not completely certain.

[Shi Tong]

The combined Liu-Sun force met Cao in battle and thanks to the fire attack (which Kongming proposed) hurt Cao's army morale, already reeling from disease and poor training.

I agree that it was much more equal, without Liu Bei being there they wouldn't have smited Cao's army quite so hard on his retreat, which really made Cao Cao think twice.

I was reading the bio of Zhou Yu the other day and found that in his SGZ bio it states that "Huang Gai saw that Cao Cao's fleet was chained together and proposed a fire attack against the ships".

I dont know if this is accurate, but it kinda puts a new slant on things.

I think that Chi Bi was probably the more important battle in terms of RTK period though, since Wu would have fallen if Cao's army had really got a firm foothold into Wu territory, and Liu Bei would have been stuck there, helping out Sun Quan after his alliance with him was announced.

It might have been possible to repel Cao by cutting off his supplies if Wu and Shu forces had retaken the river once Cao Cao was across, which would have been a very interesting fight.

Yi Ling was very important, but it only spelled the end of the three kingdoms period, which would never have happened at all if Chi Bi had been Cao's victory.