Shu

[Jimayo]

Since we've gone way off topic in the which kingdom do you support thread, I'm gonna continue the argument here.

C'mon, if you asked Shu-supporter why he/she like Shu, many of them would said:

1. Zhuge Liang was a military Genius (which I would only agree to some extented) and could beat anyone.
2. Liu Bei was a virtious and Shu was the most righteous.
3. The 5-tigers generals are the top 5 generals during RTK:lol:

Yet, most Shu supporters when ask who they hate most in Shu, they would said Wei Yan. Why? cos they view that Wei Yan was hated by Zhuge Liang, it mean that Wei Yan must be bad.

So it is inevitable that when most talk about Shu, they end up talking about Zhuge Liang...

In truth, I don't know what most people found in Shu. Even from SGYY, Shu had lots of promised but deliver little...

1. He couldn't beat everyone, but he was good(though not the god he was portrayed to be).
2. Liu Bei was ruthless while appearing to be virtuous, which I think is much better than actually being virtuous.
3. They weren't the top five gens of all time, but they were quite talented, and you have to admit that.(Although my top three fav are, in no specific order, Jiang Wei, Deng Ai, and Lu Kang)

And I liked Wei Yan. I don't really believe he was as contentious as he was portrayed.

[Han Xin]

My view on Shu on general...

Shu was founded on betrayal. Liu Bei betrayal of Liu Zhang, Liu Bei betrayal of Wu. Shu was a kingdoms that only have several great guy namely Liu Bei, Zhuge Liang, Pang Tong, Fa Zheng, Zhang Fei, Guan Yu (to some extense), Huang Zhong, Jiang Wan, Fei Yi, and Wei Yan.

After the death of many of it officers Shu began to die.


My view on Shu on Zhuge Liang...

Yes, I do critised him for his failure in the northern campaigns. Most people used excused like inferor troops numbers and supply shortage to justify for his failure in the northern campaigns. Yet other people living during that time also have the same difficulty like Zhuge Liang (namely Cao Cao at Guan Du), yet they prevail, but Zhuge Liang fail.

I also critised the wisdom of Zhuge Liang going on 5 campaigns against Wei. Most of his supporters said that attack was the best form of defence. Yet from the time that Liu Bei pass away to the first northern campaign, Wei don't really send any troops to invade Shu, infact during this period nearly all of the fighting was done between Wei/Wu. This largely credited to Wei Yan and not Zhuge Liang's military genius.

However, I do believe that Zhuge Liang was a genius. During the RTK period, he manage to make Wu allied with Shu, hence freeing up alot of human resource in Shu. The alliance between Wu/Shu were stronger than it was even before Liu Bei's misadventure in Yiling, that is not an easy thing to do.

My view on 5-Tigers

Zhang Fei- Great,
Guan Yu- Strong, but not a symbol of righteous like one might think (infact completely opposite).
Huang Zhong- Great,
Zhao Yun- EXTREMELY OVER-RATED... Never done anything.
Ma Chao- Basically a barbarian...

[Lu Bu]

Liu Bei was ruthless while appearing to be virtuous, which I think is much better than actually being virtuous.

Finally someone who sees him as the way I would portrait him. All this nice, kind, gental rubbish was getting me sick

Shu was founded on betrayal. Liu Bei betrayal of Liu Zhang, Liu Bei betrayal of Wu.

I could not of agree more, and personally I don't like Shu.

As for generals:

-Lu Bu (haha... according to SGYY at least)
-Dian Wei (I think he's underrated. In SGYY, he was able to pick out two people and kill others with them, unless you're superman, you tell me another person who is able to this
-Zhang Fei, I never liked him, I think he's good for fighting, but nothing else. This guy couldn't run a meat business if you ask him to... maybe that's why he decide to butcher people on the battlefield instead)
-Guan Yu (hmm... I never saw a general that kept on getting hit with arrows left and right, yet never learn to dodge)
-Ma Chao, stupid as hell, a cynic, chops off his father's bloodbrother's arm just because some crap he heard. If I was making the ROTK games, I give him an intel. of 20)
-As for Wei Yan, I think he's just stupid. What, he think he's got so much charisma that everyone would want to follow him? He got what he deserved

[Dennis]

-Zhang Fei, I never liked him, I think he's good for fighting, but nothing else. This guy couldn't run a meat business if you ask him to... maybe that's why he decide to butcher people on the battlefield instead)

I don't know if I think that's fair to say that Zhang Fei is a good for nothing. He was pretty charasmatic when dealing with Yan Yan. He really just had a weakness for the drink, anyone could have had their performance hindered by that.

[Jimayo]

-Zhang Fei, I never liked him, I think he's good for fighting, but nothing else. This guy couldn't run a meat business if you ask him to... maybe that's why he decide to butcher people on the battlefield instead)

I don't know if I think that's fair to say that Zhang Fei is a good for nothing. He was pretty charasmatic when dealing with Yan Yan. He really just had a weakness for the drink, anyone could have had their performance hindered by that.

Plus, he's not as stupid as many believe(thanks to koei). In his later years, he developed strategies, that while not spectacular, were still pretty good, and showed that he had a brain as well as muscles.

[James]

Guan Yu- Strong, but not a symbol of righteous like one might think (infact completely opposite).

Guan Yu certainly was not the opposite of righteous. He may have been a little arrogant and he may have been willing to raid Wu's supply depot, that does not mean he was not righteous. Guan Yu held himself to high ideals and the embodiment of loyalty. Not only was he also a skilled fighter he was also a very able leader.

Huang Zhong was great; the novel does justice to him.
Zhang Fei is highly underrated in the novel, one of Liu Bei's best generals all along.
Zhao Yun, although he did participate in the northern campaigns and was a troop leader at Yi Ling, was highly overrated.
Ma Chao was unethical and arrogant... I don't know if I would sum him up as a "barbarian" though.

[Han Xin]

Guan Yu certainly was not the opposite of righteous. He may have been a little arrogant and he may have been willing to raid Wu's supply depot, that does not mean he was not righteous. Guan Yu held himself to high ideals and the embodiment of loyalty. Not only was he also a skilled fighter he was also a very able leader.

I have absolutely no respect for Guan Yu integrity at all. He did try to steal a dead man wife after he was involve in the cause of his death. I found such action to be on the border of thuggery...

[Taishi Guang]

[quote

As for generals:

-Dian Wei (I think he's underrated. In SGYY, he was able to pick out two people and kill others with them, unless you're superman, you tell me another person who is able to this
-Zhang Fei, I never liked him, I think he's good for fighting, but nothing else. This guy couldn't run a meat business if you ask him to... maybe that's why he decide to butcher people on the battlefield instead)
-Guan Yu (hmm... I never saw a general that kept on getting hit with arrows left and right, yet never learn to dodge)
-Ma Chao, stupid as hell, a cynic, chops off his father's bloodbrother's arm just because some crap he heard. If I was making the ROTK games, I give him an intel. of 20)
-As for Wei Yan, I think he's just stupid. What, he think he's got so much charisma that everyone would want to follow him? He got what he deserved

-Dian Wei was just a bodyguard and was extremrly strong: Overrated
-Zhang Fei was a great fighter and used ruses to defeat a few opponents. He did convince Yan Yan to join him: Not Stupid
-Guan Yu must not be that bad if Cao Cao (only recruits the best ) had him join his army and attack Yuan Shao, which was very important to Cao Cao's existance: Great Hero of RTK
-Ma Chao was a coward who pretty much murdered his father: Loser
-Wei Yan, great warrior and genius at densive warfare (Hanzhong). Wanted what was best for Shu, but ZL was a typical politician and had him murdered. Should take Zhao Yun and Ma Chao's spot as Tiger General: Best officer Liu Shan had

[James]

I have absolutely no respect for Guan Yu integrity at all. He did try to steal a dead man wife after he was involve in the cause of his death. I found such action to be on the border of thuggery...

I think Guan Yu took death lightly. He probably never regretted actions on his part that led to the death of another officer or even considered them in relation to resulting events. Also, although your point above is valid and I will certainly agree with it in this respect, I do not feel it sums up his character as a whole.

[Zhuge-Guan Yi]

I don't know how to express my love for Shu, I really admire them very much. :lily: