Zhuge liang - a military strategist

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Re: Zhuge liang - a military strategist

Unread postby White Horse General » Sun Aug 15, 2004 10:28 pm

Jiangji wrote:Can anyone give me info on the achievement of zhou yu other than battle of chibi ?


Zhou Yu had no lone grand achievements, heck Zhou Yu had no lone minor achievements to his name either. Everything he did was hand in hand with other generals. Chi Bi was a team effort between Wu and Liu Bei and the fire attack wasn't even Zhou Yu's doing. Suffice to say he's completely overrated.

Zhuge Liang however, you'll notice most of the people that say he wasn't a military strategist are the hardcore Wei and Wu supporters. Rarely do their claims have anything to do with the actual history so much as they are just trying to make their chosen sides look nicer in comparison. And before anyone tries to brand me, no I'm not a Shuist; I just give credit where credit is due.

Zhuge Liang's texts on war are numerous, and he was widely regarded as a phenomenal military leader not just for his clever ambushes and his superb leadership ( in fact I have a book here called Mastering the Art of War that includes Liu Ji's interpretations of military formation and Zhuge Liang's essays on the perfect general/ideal leader ), but for his nearly legendary ability to gain popular support wherever he went. He held the highest civil and miliatry ranks in Shu and pretty much single-handedly ran all the affairs of the kingdom. It's been said when he died he was doing so much work himself the burden was enough to kill two men. I'd recommend looking up some of his essays and other notes, they're quite impressive reads.
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Unread postby robbyjo » Sun Aug 15, 2004 10:44 pm

If that's the case, then virtually all generals' deed were of the result of team work. Nobody can do war alone. A general may come and kill another general was indirectly supported by other generals / soldiers. Similarly ZGL achieved his goal by the help of other generals / advisors. We can't strictly say "lone achievement" in war anyway...

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Unread postby White Horse General » Sun Aug 15, 2004 11:05 pm

robbyjo wrote:If that's the case, then virtually all generals' deed were of the result of team work. Nobody can do war alone. A general may come and kill another general was indirectly supported by other generals / soldiers. Similarly ZGL achieved his goal by the help of other generals / advisors. We can't strictly say "lone achievement" in war anyway...

-- Rob


Zhao Yun rescued Liu shan and Lady Gan himself. Dian Wei fought to death agaisnt Zhang Xiu's forces in defense of Cao Cao himself. Zhuge Liang ran virtually every civil and military matter of Shu on his own. Zhang Liao led a raid of 800 agaisnt Sun Quan's massive army and routed them at Hefei. Lu Xun developed the strategy that won Yiling. Lu Meng worked out the plan to take Jingzhou. Zhou Yu....Zhou yu....hmm...that's right Zhou yu did nothing, in fact it's highly plausible he relied heavily on Sun Yu in his campaigns.
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Unread postby robbyjo » Sun Aug 15, 2004 11:13 pm

Let's play devil's advocate... ;)

Zhao Yun can rescue Liu Shan and Lady Gan because of the help / hint of Sun Qian, fellow villagers, and Zhang Fei. Not to mention Cao Cao's order not to harm him...

Zhang Liao? Wasn't he covered with Li Dian and Yue Jin?

Dian Wei fought to death was an accident -- he was drunk and slain forthwith. So, it's not a defense.

Lu Xun? His strategy wouldn't work without Zhu Ran and others...

Lu Meng? Was it not Lu Xun's plan rather than his?

ZGL... if he didn't have access to the generals, he was pretty much a dud. Run every civil / military matter on his own? Nah... How'd you count Ma Liang? Fa Zheng? Pang Tong? Fei Yi? Jiang Wan? Countless of others too...

Likewise Zhou Yu...

It's a matter of teamwork.

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Unread postby Sam » Sun Aug 15, 2004 11:47 pm

robbyjo wrote:Dian Wei fought to death was an accident -- he was drunk and slain forthwith. So, it's not a defense.


I think it's rather unfair to say Dian Wei was "slain forthwith", and that his act can't be considered a defence. On the contrary, Dian Wei's heroic stand against Zhang Xiu ensured Cao Cao's successful retreat. Historically speaking, Dian Wei held off Zhang Xiu's troops with but ten men under his command. While I agree that the truly great military accomplishments are rarely achieved without the help of others, Dian Wei's final stand against Zhang Xiu can't really be included, nor ruled out as an individual accomplishment.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Sun Aug 15, 2004 11:47 pm

robbyjo wrote:If that's the case, then virtually all generals' deed were of the result of team work. Nobody can do war alone. A general may come and kill another general was indirectly supported by other generals / soldiers. Similarly ZGL achieved his goal by the help of other generals / advisors. We can't strictly say "lone achievement" in war anyway...

-- Rob


Chi Bi is in fact a special case.Due to numerous conflicting arguments it is most accurate to describe Chi Bi as simply an alliance victory rather than trying to pass out individual medals.
Zhou Yu's bio might make it seem he merits a medal but Cao Cao's bio says otherwise.Due to all that it's rather impossible to really single out people at Chi Bi.
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Unread postby PrimeMinister Bu Zhi » Sun Aug 15, 2004 11:54 pm

Let's play devil's advocate...

Zhao Yun can rescue Liu Shan and Lady Gan because of the help / hint of Sun Qian, fellow villagers, and Zhang Fei. Not to mention Cao Cao's order not to harm him...

Zhang Liao? Wasn't he covered with Li Dian and Yue Jin?

Dian Wei fought to death was an accident -- he was drunk and slain forthwith. So, it's not a defense.

Lu Xun? His strategy wouldn't work without Zhu Ran and others...

Lu Meng? Was it not Lu Xun's plan rather than his?

ZGL... if he didn't have access to the generals, he was pretty much a dud. Run every civil / military matter on his own? Nah... How'd you count Ma Liang? Fa Zheng? Pang Tong? Fei Yi? Jiang Wan? Countless of others too...

Likewise Zhou Yu...

It's a matter of teamwork.


Very true. Zhou Yu was still a great general. What about Huang Zhong. What acheivments does he have in the SGZ other then his raid that Yan Yan and Fa Zhang helped with. Does that mean he sucks. No. Same with Zhou Yu.
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Unread postby robbyjo » Mon Aug 16, 2004 12:03 am

Well... Dian Wei is supposed to guard the Cao Cao's tent (not front gate). Cao Cao called Dian Wei but he was drunk. Cao Cao fled already but he just woke up when the gong rang. Yes, he fought for a while, but it's his fault. He didn't defend his lord. It's not an achievement. It's more like a shameful accident.

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Unread postby Iain » Mon Aug 16, 2004 12:12 am

robbyjo wrote:Well... Dian Wei is supposed to guard the Cao Cao's tent (not front gate). Cao Cao called Dian Wei but he was drunk. Cao Cao fled already but he just woke up when the gong rang. Yes, he fought for a while, but it's his fault. He didn't defend his lord. It's not an achievement. It's more like a shameful accident.
It is shameful he got drunk on duty, but he redeemed himself by defending the gate bravely with no armour and little help, if he hadnt done that then Cao Cao would have been caught and killed.
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Unread postby robbyjo » Mon Aug 16, 2004 12:18 am

Iain,

Cao Cao had already fled before Dian Wei woke up... :lol: Much credit of Cao Cao's escape actually belonged to Cao Ang, his own son that offer him his own horse -- after Cao Cao's Dawan's horse was died of an arrow.... And to some lesser extent, Cao Amin, his nephew. Not much of Dian Wei since the pursuers already catching up even without Dian Wei guarding the front gate...

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