Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Unread postby jiuwan » Mon Apr 21, 2003 2:51 am

The_Phat_One wrote:Okay can anyway tell me what happened on the 2nd, 3rd and 4th northren campaigns launched by Kongming. I think almost everyone knoes what happens at the 1st and 5th, but what about the ones in between? And, was there ever a sixth campaign into Wei terrioty launched by Zhuge like there is in the book? Or is it a nice piece of work invented by LGZ


Here's a basic summary of what happened in each campaign.

228 A.D.
Spring:
Zhuge Liang launched the first northern campaigns against Wei. Attacking Qi Shan. Jiang Wei was forced into surrendering to Zhuge Liang. Ma Su losted at Jie Ting to Zhang He. Zhuge Liang retreated back into Han Zhong. Ma Su was executed. Zhuge Liang demoted himself by three ranks.
Cao Zhen was a commander for Wei against Shu.

Winter:
Zhuge Liang launched the second northern campaigns against Wei. He laid seige to Chen Cang, but forced to retreat due to lack of supplies. Wang Shaung led his troops to pursue the retreating army. Wang Shuang was defeated in battle and beheaded. Cao Zhen was also a commander in defense against Wei.

229 A.D.
Spring:
Third northern campaign launced against Wei. Wu Du and Yin Ping occupied. Liu Shan reinstates Zhuge Liang back to the rank of Prime Minister. Shu was forced to retreat due to lack of supplies. Guo Huai defeated.

231 A.D.
Zhuge launced the fourth northern expedition. The "wooden ox" was used to transport supplies. Wei army defeated. Sima Yi's first appearance against Zhuge Liang. Sima Yi refused to come out to open battle, instead he held out for the seige by Zhuge Liang. Supplies ran out and Zhuge Liang was forced to retreat. Zhuge battled with Zhang He and killed him with arrows.

234 A.D.
Zhuge Liang leads the <b>fifth and final</b> northern campaign against Wei. Stationed at Wu Zhang Plains. Zhuge Liang and Sima Yi fought to a stalemate. Zhuge Liang died of sickness and fatigue.

There wasn't a sixth campaign led by Zhuge Liang in SGYY (If I remember correctly. The novel only told of five campaigns.) He died at Wu Zhang Plains and that was the end of the northern campaigns by him. Afterwards, Jiang Wei led the northern campaigns against Wei.
jiuwan
Marquis of Shun Ping
 
Posts: 542
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2003 4:46 am

Unread postby Lady Zhuge » Mon Apr 21, 2003 2:54 am

Second campaign: Zhuge Liang and his army lay siege at Chen Cang, but had to retreat due to lack of supplies. Wang Shuang led troops in pursuit, but was killed.

Third campaign: Zhuge Liang took the prefectures of Wu Du and Yin Ping.

Fourth campaign: Zhuge Liang and his army surrounded Qi Shan and also invented and used the "Wooden Oxen" to transport supplies. At the city of Lu, he defeated the Wei army. Afterwards, Sima Yi refused to come out to battle. Zhuge Liang was forced to retreat when supplies ran out(ie. Li Yan fearing he couldn't transport supplies due to bad weather). Sima Yi sent Zhang He in pursuit, and the latter was killed in an ambush.

No, there was never a sixth campaign historically.

(EDIT): Oh...someone already answered the question while I was answering it. Doh. :lol:
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein

¡°ÈËÉú²»¿ÉÄÜÄÇôƽµ££¬ ÄÇôÏ뵱Ȼ£» ²»¿ÉÓÀÔ¶ÔÚÏÊ»¨¶È¹ý¡£ ÕýÈçÄǾäÀÏ»°£º ¡®ÈýÊ®ÄêºÓ¶«£¬ ÈýÊ®ÄêºÓÎ÷¡£¡¯¡±

- ÌƹúÇ¿
User avatar
Lady Zhuge
Kongming's One and Only
 
Posts: 1178
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 3:29 pm
Location: With Kongming

Unread postby grand master of san guo » Mon Apr 21, 2003 3:18 am

how many campaing did jiang wei do? and how many man he got?? why didnt he win?? i have another question is when simia yan lunched final attack to wu how many army he got?? i heard its like 800,000 but not excatl
" cao cao has more than million army, but there is nothing to fear about." we must ally. so that we can bring peace to the world!!
User avatar
grand master of san guo
Student
 
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2002 12:20 am
Location: Wu Zhang plain

Unread postby rcsha » Mon Apr 21, 2003 4:51 am

grand master of san guo wrote:how many campaing did jiang wei do? and how many man he got?? why didnt he win?? i have another question is when simia yan lunched final attack to wu how many army he got?? i heard its like 800,000 but not excatl


Jiang Wei launched 9 Northern Invasions. He waited about 15 years until he felt that Shu was strong enough and that he was smart enough to attack Wei...maybe he should've waited longer, lol.

Oh, and Jiuwan, the first northern invasion was in Spring of 227, not 228. The second was in the Winter of 228. Everything else is correct though, and kudos on the post, very informative and well put-together.

Nonetheless, I'm not sure how many troops each force had, and Sima Yi didn't invade Shu, Deng Ai did. As a matter of fact, Sima Yi was stripped of his military power 8+ years before Jiang Wei invaded Wei, consequently he was reinstated the same year that Jiang Wei invaded the first time. Plus Sima Yi died roughly 11 years before Jiang Wei's final invasion and the invasion of Shu.
Dickjutsu.com
The Bruce Lee of Dickery.
User avatar
rcsha
Ao Kaio Nankou
 
Posts: 1083
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 1:02 am
Location: http://www.dickjutsu.com

Unread postby jiuwan » Mon Apr 21, 2003 5:17 am

Lady Zhuge wrote:Sima Yi sent Zhang He in pursuit, and the latter was killed in an ambush.


Sorry to nitpick. But according to Zhuge Liang's SGZ bio. Chen Shou wrote the following...

九年,亮复出祁山,以木牛運,糧盡退軍,与魏將張邰交戰,射殺邰。

Which translates to: In the ninth year [231A.D.], Zhuge Liang marched out from Qishan once more. He used 'wooden oxen' to transport supplies but after provisions were exhausted the army retreated. He battled the Wei general Zhang He and killed him with arrows.

So Zhang he died by arrows in the pursuit of the retreating army in open battle, not an ambush during the pursuit.

grand master of san guo wrote:how many campaing did jiang wei do? and how many man he got?? why didnt he win??


Excerpts from Jiang Wei's SGZ bio (translated by Battleroyale):
<i>
First campaign:
In Yan Xi 10th year to Wei Jiang Jun, sharing administrative power with Fei Wei. This year, Jiang Wei led some troops to quell a minor uprising at Han Shan county Ping Kang Xuan. Following which, he ordered his troops to invade Long Xi, Nan An and Jing Cheng. He engaged the Wei generals Guo Zhun, Xiahou Ba at the region west of Tao River.

Second campaign:
In Yan Xi 12th year, Jiang Wei embarked on the second northern expedition after receiving orders but was not successful. Jiang Wei always had high opinions of his knowledge of the cultural and lifestyle of the northern tribes as well as his own military abilities. As such, he often intended to use the northern tribes to aid him in the subjugation of the region west of Long Shan. However, Fei Wei frequently restricted Jiang Wei's actions, rejected his proposals and did not allow him to mobilize more than 10,000 troops.

Third campaign:
In the spring of Yan Xi 16th year, Fei Wei passed away. In that summer, Jiang Wei led several tens of thousands troops to attack Nan An. Wei sent Chen Tai to reinforce Nan An and Jiang Wei had to retreat back to Shu territory due to food shortage problem.

Fourth campaign:
In the following year, Jiang Wei attacked Long Xi and the defender of Di Dao, Li Jian, surrendered. Jiang Wei proceeded to attack Xiang Wu Xuan and defeated Wei general Xu Zhi's army, beheading him. Nevertheless, Jiang Wei had to retreat back to Shu territory together with some of the civilians of Di Dao, He Guan and Lin Tao.

Fifth campaign:
In Yan Xi 18th year, Jiang Wei, together with Xiahou Ba (who had joined Shu), attacked Di Dao. They defeated the Inspector of Yong province, Wang Jing, at the west of Tao Xi, causing Wei to lose tens of thousands soldiers. Wang Jing retreated back to the city of Di Dao and Jiang Wei laid seige to it. However, Jiang Wei was forced to retreat when the reinforcement led by ChenTai arrived.

Sixth campaign:
In the spring of Yan Xi 19th year, Jiang Wei was appointed as Da Jiang Jun. Once again, Jiang Wei embarked on the northern expedition and he had arranged for Hu Ji to assist his expedition. However, Hu Ji broke his promise and did not arrive. As such, Jiang Wei was badly defeated at Duan Gu by the Wei general Deng Ai. Casualty rate was very high, the region west of Long Shan was destabilized and Jiang Wei suffered heavy criticisms from the populace. Jiang Wei offered apologies and a self-demotion to Hou Jiang Jun. Nevertheless, he resumed his original responsibilities.

Seventh campaign:
In Yan Xi 20th year, Zhuge Dan, Wei's Zhen Dong Da Jiang Jun based in Huai Nan, rebelled. Seeing this as an opportunity to attack Wei, Jiang Wei led several tens of thousands troops to attack Chen Ling. Wei sent Sima Wang and Deng Ai as reinforcements. A stalemate resulted at Wei Shui, despite Jiang Wei repeated challenges. The rebellion led by Zhuge Dan ended in failure. On receiving the news, Jiang Wei gave orders to retreat. Back at Cheng Du, Jiang Wei was reinstated back to his original rank of Da Jiang Jun.

Eigth campaign:
In Jin Yao 5th year, Jiang Wei embarked on another northern expedition but was defeated once more by Deng Ai. </i>

Time and time again Jiang Wei was defeated and unsuccessful in his campaigns against Wei. As you can see what I cut and pasted above from Battleroyale's translation (Why translate myself when someone's already done it? Gotta love cut and paste :lol: ). His later campaigns were unsuccessful becuase he couldn't defeat Deng Ai.
jiuwan
Marquis of Shun Ping
 
Posts: 542
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2003 4:46 am

Unread postby jiuwan » Mon Apr 21, 2003 5:46 am

rcsha wrote:Jiang Wei launched 9 Northern Invasions.


There was 9 campaigns? Check my above post and see which campaign I missed. I only listed 8 campaigns. Thanks for pointing it out. I guess I was lazy and counted wrong :lol:

rcsha wrote:Oh, and Jiuwan, the first northern invasion was in Spring of 227, not 228. The second was in the Winter of 228. Everything else is correct though, and kudos on the post, very informative and well put-together.


Well here's what I got from Zhuge Liang's SGZ bio:


五年,率諸軍北駐漢中,臨發,上疏曰:先帝創業未半而中道崩殂,今天下三分,益州疲弊,此誠危急存亡之秋也。然侍衛之臣不懈于內,忠志之士忘身于外者,蓋追先帝之殊遇,欲報之于陛下也。誠宜開張圣听,以光先帝遺德,恢弘志士之气,不宜妄自菲薄,引喻失義,以塞忠諫之路也。宮中府中俱為一體,陟罰臧否,不宜异同。若有作奸犯科及為忠善者,宜付有司論其刑賞,以昭陛下平明之理,不宜偏私,使內外异法也。侍中、侍郎郭攸之、費?、董允等,此皆良實,志慮忠純,是以先帝簡拔以遺陛下。愚以為宮中之事,事無大小,悉以咨之,然后施行,必能禪補闕漏,有所廣益。將軍向寵,性行淑均,曉暢軍事,試用于昔日,先帝稱之曰能,是以眾議舉寵為督。愚以為營中之事,悉以咨之,必能使行陳和睦,优劣得所。親賢臣,遠小人,此先漢所以興隆也;親小人,遠賢臣,此后漢所以傾頹也。先帝在時,每与臣論此事,未嘗不嘆息痛恨于桓、靈也。侍中、尚書、長史、參軍,此悉貞良死節之臣,愿陛下親之信之,則漢室之隆,可計日而待也。
臣本布衣,躬耕于南陽,苟全性命于亂世,不求聞達于諸候。先帝不以臣卑鄙,猥自枉屈,三顧臣于草廬之中,咨臣以當世之事,由是感激,遂許先帝以驅馳。后值傾覆,受任于敗軍之際,奉命于危難之間,爾來二十有一年矣。先帝知臣謹慎,故臨崩寄臣以大事也。受命以來,夙夜懮嘆,恐托付不效,以傷先帝之明,故五月渡瀘,深入不毛。今南方已定,兵甲已足,當獎率三軍,北定中原,庶竭駑鈍,攘除奸凶,興复漢室,還于舊都。此臣所以報先帝,而忠陛下之職分也。
至于斟酌損益,進盡忠言,敗攸之、?、允之任也。愿陛下托臣以討賊興复之效;不效,敗治臣之罪,以告先帝之靈。[若無興德之言,則]責攸之、?、允等之慢,以彰其咎。陛下亦宜自謀,以咨諏善道,察納雅言,深追先帝遺詔。臣不胜受恩感激,今當遠离,臨表涕零,不知所言。遂行,屯于沔陽。
六年春,揚聲由斜谷道取眉,使趙云、鄧芝為疑軍,据箕谷,魏大將軍曹真舉眾拒之。亮身率諸軍攻祁山,戎陳整齊,賞罰肅而號令長明,南安、天水、永安三郡叛魏應亮,關中響震。魏明帝西鎮長安,命張邰拒亮,亮使馬謖督諸軍在前,与邰戰于街亭。謖違亮節度,舉動失宜,大為張邰所破。亮拔西縣千余家,還于漢中,戮謖以謝眾。上疏曰:臣以弱才,叨竊非据,親秉旄鉞以歷三軍,不能訓章明法,臨事而懼,至有街亭違命之闕,箕谷不戒之失,咎皆在臣授任無方。臣明不知人,恤事多暗,《春秋》責帥,臣職是當。請自貶三等,以督厥咎。于是以亮為右將軍,行丞相事,所總統如前。


(Translation) In the fifth year [227 A.D.] Zhuge Liang led his generals to station at Han Zhong. Then it goes on and on with Zhuge Liang's ramblings in his memorial to Liu Shan. Starting at "六年春,揚聲由斜谷道取眉,使趙云、鄧芝為疑軍,据箕谷,魏大將軍曹真舉眾拒之." (Translation) In the sixth year of Jianxing [228], Zhuge Liang declared that he would march through the Xie Gorge to take Mei. He sent Zhao Yun and Deng Zhi as decoys to occupy Ji Gorge and the great Wei general Cao Zhen led his armies to oppose them.

So to me this was the start of the first invasion by Zhuge Liang in 228 A.D. not 227. I interpreted that as: the force was garrisoned and readied at Han Zhong in 227 A.D.. But the invasion didn't start until 228 A.D.

And then in the winter of the same year the second offensive was launched against Wei.

So correct me if I'm wrong. Cuz I'm only going by Zhuge Liang's SGZ bio only on these dates. I'm too lazy right now to dig through other bios for the specific dates right now.

Sorry rcsha, not trying to start a fight or debate. Just trying clear up some facts, if I'm wrong I'm wrong. That way I learn more. Which is the purpose of this forum.
jiuwan
Marquis of Shun Ping
 
Posts: 542
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2003 4:46 am

Unread postby rcsha » Mon Apr 21, 2003 6:28 am

jiuwan wrote:There was 9 campaigns? Check my above post and see which campaign I missed. I only listed 8 campaigns. Thanks for pointing it out. I guess I was lazy and counted wrong :lol:


Hmm, I'm not sure...I can't read dates based on Jian An, Yon Xi, etc. lol. Here's a list of the dates when he attacked, I off the top of my head, can't remember what happened specifically in any one invasion.

1st-Summer 249
2nd-Autumn 253
3rd-Summer 255
4th-Summer 256
5th-Summer 258
6th-Winter 258
7th-Summer 260
8th-Autumn 262
9th-Autumn 262

I'm not sure which one you missed, I think it may be the 9th and final one, but I don't know.

So to me this was the start of the first invasion by Zhuge Liang in 228 A.D. not 227. I interpreted that as: the force was garrisoned and readied at Han Zhong in 227 A.D.. But the invasion didn't start until 228 A.D.
And then in the winter of the same year the second offensive was launched against Wei.
So correct me if I'm wrong. Cuz I'm only going by Zhuge Liang's SGZ bio only on these dates. I'm too lazy right now to dig through other bios for the specific dates right now.


Hmm, I'd always thought of it as he started the invasion in March of 227 when he advanced the troops north. He may not have invaded yet, but he still moved north, which most of the invasions are registered to have started when he started moving. I guess it's just one of those debatable facts, lol.
Dickjutsu.com
The Bruce Lee of Dickery.
User avatar
rcsha
Ao Kaio Nankou
 
Posts: 1083
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 1:02 am
Location: http://www.dickjutsu.com

Unread postby grand master of san guo » Mon Apr 21, 2003 5:00 pm

cao cao is not the empire of wei, but why they call him wei wu de
" cao cao has more than million army, but there is nothing to fear about." we must ally. so that we can bring peace to the world!!
User avatar
grand master of san guo
Student
 
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2002 12:20 am
Location: Wu Zhang plain

Unread postby WilliamL » Mon Apr 21, 2003 5:41 pm

jiuwan wrote:
Lady Zhuge wrote:Sima Yi sent Zhang He in pursuit, and the latter was killed in an ambush.


Sorry to nitpick. But according to Zhuge Liang's SGZ bio. Chen Shou wrote the following...

九年,亮复出祁山,以木牛運,糧盡退軍,与魏將張邰交戰,射殺邰。

Which translates to: In the ninth year [231A.D.], Zhuge Liang marched out from Qishan once more. He used 'wooden oxen' to transport supplies but after provisions were exhausted the army retreated. He battled the Wei general Zhang He and killed him with arrows.

So Zhang he died by arrows in the pursuit of the retreating army in open battle, not an ambush during the pursuit.


I'm sorry too I don't want to be picky... :oops:
However if you look at Zhang He SGZ bio:

〔 一 〕   魏 略 曰 : 亮 軍 退 , 司 馬 宣 王使 郃 追 之 , 郃 曰 : 「 軍 法 , 圍 城 必 開 出 路 , 歸 軍 勿 追 。」 宣 王 不 聽 。 郃 不 得 已 , 遂 進 。 蜀 軍 乘 高 布 伏 , 弓 弩 亂發 , 矢 中 郃 髀 。

It says when ZL's army was retreating, Sima Yi sent Zhang He to the pursuit, unfortunately He fell into Shu's ambush.
(Sorry though not the direct translation, but I know you can read Chinese so ... hehe )

Also from the book of New ER Shi Wu Shi SGZ (二十五史新編: 三 國 志 ) it says the same thing.

張郃率軍追擊, 中蜀軍埋伏, 被射殺.
Translated as : Zhang He led his army to the pusrsuit, he fell into Shu's ambush and got killed by arrows.

The battle they have I think is to lure the ennemy to where Shu's army have an ambush?

By the way... you both confused me :? lol
So for the Northern campaigns, the first campaign started in the year 227 and the first invasion started in 228 right :wink:
User avatar
WilliamL
Initiate
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2002 8:34 pm
Location: Canada

Liu Bang's charioteer

Unread postby Lodril » Mon Apr 21, 2003 6:14 pm

Alright, since I've been asked to, I'll pose my question here. I don't like 'catchall' sticky topics though... it wastes the benefits of subject headers. Transplanted from my earlier message:

So whatever happened to Liu Bang's charioteer? His little Krishna, whose name I have forgotten for the moment, that turned the chariot around to keep him from abandoning his family when fleeing Xiang Yu.

It's an interesting parallel with Liu Bei and Zhao Yun, and I wonder how Liu Bang rewarded or punished the charioteer for his disobedience.
Lodril
Student
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 6:27 pm
Location: In the Stables

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved