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Unread postby Jiang Hsuan » Wed Apr 16, 2003 12:47 am

Right now I'm almost done with the third book (like page 1600... around there) and it's been good so far. But there's some things that are annoying me...

1.) How long is a li, what do they mean by "watch" (ex: "By the 5th watch..." I know it's some kind of time measurement, but can anyone tell me what it is?) and how tall/long is a span? Maybe there was something in the notes somewhere about those measurements, and I missed them.

2.) In DW4, it says Ma Chao lives until 222, but right now it's already 223 and he's still well and alive. Is it something else Luo Guanzhong also altered from actual history or something?

Edit: Oh and I almost forgot...

3.) Is Liu Shan supposed to be Liu Chan?

Spoilers...
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4.) What do you think would have happened if Liu Bei had taken his people's advice to first get rid of Cao Pi instead of attacking Wu at Yi Ling? Zhang Fei wouldn't have gotten assassinated, and they wouldn't have suffered a defeat. And Yi Ling also added to Liu Bei's grief, and made him more miserable, and died not too long after. Sure he wanted to avenge his oath brothers, but I think Liu Bei was too blinded by rage to act reasonably, and thus refused the advice given to him.
Last edited by Jiang Hsuan on Wed Apr 16, 2003 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby jiuwan » Wed Apr 16, 2003 12:52 am

Zhugeliang wrote:Who is Pang De I know he serve under Ma ten then Cao CAo and Guan Yu killed him but who is he these are all i know.


What is it that you want to know about Pang De? Can you be a little more specific? Here's a little basic summary of him.

Pang De styled Lingming 龐德 (令明) was from the area of Nan An (南安). When Cao Cao conquerored the lands of Han Zhong, Pang De surrendered to Cao Cao and served him until his death. When Pang De went to fight Guan Yu, some officers of Cao Cao said: "Pang De's loyalty may be questioned, since his former lord Ma Chao had joined the forces of Shu." Now when Ma Chao had went over to the side of Liu Bei, Pang De was sick at the moment thus left behind in Han Zhong when Ma Chao went over to Liu Bei's side. Thus Pang De was sent to fight Cao Cao's armies by Zhang Lu. Pang De's surrender to Cao Cao was seen as a plot to stay alive. And upon hearing news that Ma Chao is under the banner of Shu, so too he will surrender to Guan Yu to re-join his former lord. This was the argument against him. (Excerpt from his SGZ bio) To which Pang De replied: "我受國恩,義在效死。我欲身自擊羽。今年我不殺羽。羽當殺我." Which translates to: "I have received the bounty (i.e. good treatment) from the state (being the house of Wei), under righteousness I should die for the state. This year (referring to the upcoming battle with Guan Yu) if I do not kill this Guan Yu, then he shall slay me!" Thus there would be no surrendering of his part to Guan Yu. Pang De was reknown for his abilities to fight as a general, and Cao Cao had high views of him. Thus calmed with this speech, Cao Cao sent Pang De out as reinforcements to aid Cao Ren at Fan Castle. True to his words Pang De died in battle.

I hope this is what you wanted, or else I just wasted a good chunk of time translating from his bio.
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Unread postby jiuwan » Wed Apr 16, 2003 1:31 am

Jiang Hsuan wrote:2.) In DW4, it says Ma Chao lives until 222, but right now it's already 223 and he's still well and alive. Is it something else Luo Guanzhong also altered from actual history or something?


According to his SGZ bio, Ma Chao died in the year 222 shortly before Liu Bei died. His dying words to the Former Ruler (Liu Bei) was that his clan of over 200 mouths was all mostly killed by Meng De (Cao Cao) save his cousin, Ma Dai. etc. etc... So it would appear Ma Chao died before Liu Bei did. So the bio in DW4 is correct while Luo Guan Zhong is in error.

Jiang Hsuan wrote:3.) Is Liu Shan supposed to be Liu Chan?


Some people use the spelling of Liu Shan, while others use Liu Chan. Now this is confusing for some people because <b>Liu Shan</b> (The second ruler of Shu) had 7 sons in all and his 5th son, the ablest of all the sons, was named <b>Liu Chan</b>. Liu Chan commited suicide after Liu Shan consented to surrendering to Wei. (I explained this all in the thread about suicides by generals in the SGYY sympnoosium forum, sorry I forgot the exact name of that particular thread.)
Their names in chinese are very different, just the english pinyin of their names is what confuses people.

<b>Liu Shan</b> (Gong Si) 劉禪 (公嗣) was the second emperor, one of Liu Bei's son, who became the second ruler of Shu.

<b>Liu Chan</b> 劉 諶 was the fifth son of Liu Shan, the grandson of Liu Bei, who committed suicide upon Shu's surrender to Wei.
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Unread postby CaTigeReptile » Wed Apr 16, 2003 1:48 am

Jiang Hsuan wrote:
1.) How long is a li, what do they mean by "watch" (ex: "By the 5th watch..." I know it's some kind of time measurement, but can anyone tell me what it is?) and how tall/long is a span? Maybe there was something in the notes somewhere about those measurements, and I missed them.


A li is a third of a mile, just their measurement. A 'watch' is an ancient chinese 'hour' - it was two hours long. They had days that consisted of twelve of these, so it definitely makes sense.
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Unread postby Cherry_Blossom » Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:36 am

1.) How long is a li, what do they mean by "watch" (ex: "By the 5th watch..." I know it's some kind of time measurement, but can anyone tell me what it is?) and how tall/long is a span? Maybe there was something in the notes somewhere about those measurements, and I missed them.


It's in the notes section of mine-first book: a span(or Chi) is slightly less than 10 inches....six chi make a bu and 300 bu make a li..a li is about 1/3 of a mile. This is all from the Moss Robert's translation.

I have a question now myself...I am reading a translation of Ssuma-Kuang's book-Chronicles of the Three Kingdoms..volume 1 ..anyway they say it is based on the Tzu Chih T'ung Chien...what book is that and who wrote it? Also in the notes section for this book it says that in the Wei Shu (quoted in the SKC 1 , chronicle of Wu-Ti,Wei 1/47a,commentary of P'ei Sung-Chih Cao Cao did indeed write his own military strategy book...and there is no mention of it being burned...question here is is the SKC the same as the SGZ and how reliable is that source?
Short version of a quote by Thales:
Of all things;God = most ancient;he is uncreated,Universe=most beautiful;God's work,Space=greatest;holds all,Swiftest=mind;speeds
everywhere,Strongest=necessity;masters all,Wisest=time; brings all things to light
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Unread postby jiuwan » Wed Apr 16, 2003 11:58 am

Cherry_Blossom wrote:..anyway they say it is based on the Tzu Chih T'ung Chien...what book is that and who wrote it?


That book would be ZZTJ. I'm forget who wrote it though.

Cherry_Blossom wrote:Also in the notes section for this book it says that in the Wei Shu (quoted in the SKC 1 , chronicle of Wu-Ti,Wei 1/47a,commentary of P'ei Sung-Chih Cao Cao did indeed write his own military strategy book...and there is no mention of it being burned...question here is is the SKC the same as the SGZ and how reliable is that source?


They are both the same book. P'ei Sung Chih would be Pei's notes, commentary added into the SGZ - scroll 1: book of Wei. SGZ is the same as SKC. It's just different pinyin for the same chinese words. SGZ is San Guo Zhi, while SKC is San Kuo Chih. It's like Ts'ao Ts'ao is the same as Cao Cao, they both spelled the same in chinese hanzi, but the english pinyin system used to translate is different method. So in essence they are the same book. Does that tell you of the reliability? :lol:
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Unread postby Yorak » Thu Apr 17, 2003 3:10 am

I've got a few questions about one of my favorite characters, Lu Xun...

- What does his style name mean?
- The plot against Guan Yu in Jing Zhou...was Lu Xun the mastermind, or was it all Lu Meng?
- Same question, only for Zhou Fang's "Bitter Poison" plot (at least I think it was Zhou Fang; whoever it was who pretended to turn traitor to lure Wei into a trap)...
- I heard there was some falling out between Lu Xun and Sun Quan over the issue of Sun Quan's successor. Can anyone shed some light on this?
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Unread postby Kingdom of Cheng » Thu Apr 17, 2003 3:36 am

Did Pang Tong ever get married?
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Unread postby Cherry_Blossom » Thu Apr 17, 2003 4:50 am

They are both the same book. P'ei Sung Chih would be Pei's notes, commentary added into the SGZ - scroll 1: book of Wei. SGZ is the same as SKC. It's just different pinyin for the same chinese words. SGZ is San Guo Zhi, while SKC is San Kuo Chih. It's like Ts'ao Ts'ao is the same as Cao Cao, they both spelled the same in chinese hanzi, but the english pinyin system used to translate is different method. So in essence they are the same book. Does that tell you of the reliability?


Thanks! :D I thought they might be the same book but wanted to make sure..it's so different since I am used to Cao Cao not T'sao T'sao. I am trying to tell who is who. :lol: Plus it makes me wonder what happened to his book.
Short version of a quote by Thales:
Of all things;God = most ancient;he is uncreated,Universe=most beautiful;God's work,Space=greatest;holds all,Swiftest=mind;speeds
everywhere,Strongest=necessity;masters all,Wisest=time; brings all things to light
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Unread postby WilliamL » Thu Apr 17, 2003 5:41 pm

Cao Hong wrote:Did Pang Tong ever get married?

In his bio it mentions that he had a son, so I assume that he was married.
His son's name is Pang Hong (龐 宏), styled Ju Shi ( 字 巨 師 )
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