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Unread postby James » Thu Mar 20, 2003 2:26 am

What do you expect? You are entitled to your own perception of the matter, no harm in that. It simply seems logical to me that someone like Liu Bei or Zhuge Liang would not give Zhao Yun command in engagements over and over again as the decades pass if he was an incapable warrior. Cao Cao, quite the able judge of talent, highly respected Xiahou Dun as an officer and used him constantly. I cannot fathom how you can claim these people did nothing for their countries simply because they didn’t do something like lead a campaign that united half of China. If you get nothing from the SGZ bios, then there is nothing more I can say.
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Unread postby Cherry_Blossom » Thu Mar 20, 2003 4:24 am

Oh ok :D thxs. Why does everyone down hate on Zhao yun so much? I feel he was a great asset to the Shu Smpire.


Glad to be of help! :)

Well I think it should be noted too that no one can be perfect at all their military campaigns and also that it isn't just military campaigns that make one an asset to their leader and his lands.

Why does everyone down hate on Zhao yun so much? I feel he was a great asset to the Shu Smpire

I've read that before, it doesn't prove that he's talented at all. He did nothing to help the kingdom of Shu.


I think these are important accomplishments and Chao Tzu Lung1 I don't know why everyone is so down on him..here are some things he did:
Zhao Yun was originally under Gongsun Zan and when Gongsun Zan ordered Liu Bei to assist Tian Kai to fend off Yuan Shao, Zhao Yun followed along as Liu Bei?s main cavalry forces
He had to have some good leadership ability to be leading the main cavalry force. Also as much as this is mocked:
During the time when Liu Bei was pursued by Cao Cao?s forces at Dangyang Changban, Liu Bei abandoned his wife and child to flee south. Zhao Yun carried the young child, who was Liu Shan and also protected Lady Gan, the mother of Liu Shan, hence all of them were able to escape the dangers
He did save the future heir to the throne and his mother..that is important and shows great bravery and loyalty.
At the same time, Liu Bei wanted to distribute the middle class houses in the city as well as the farmlands outside to the generals. Zhao Yun proposed that since Yizhou had just suffered from war, the lands and houses should be given back to the civilians to live in so that it would be easier to manage the civilians and also obtain their loyalty and support in the future. Liu Bei accepted his proposal.
As I said it isn't all military prowress that is needed..I am not going to list anything else but he did this and he also gave a proposal to Zhuge Liang..both of these were followed and were ways of helping his country...they garnered loyalty from the people and showed intelligence. And even though he did retreat and was demoted as I said no one is perfect...and even when he had some tough battles he still fought bravely to protect the people under him.

As for Xiahou Dun:
After Cao Cao was promoted to the title of General who Displays Firmness, he appointed Dun as his military advisor, and stationed him at Baima.
Obviously Cao cao had great trust and faith in him.

When Cao Cao attacked Tao Qian, Dun was ordered to station himself at Puyang. One of Cao Cao?s commanders, Zhang Miao, took this chance to rebel and switched to Lü Bu?s side. Zhang Miao?s troops were stationed near Juancheng, and Cao Cao?s family lived in Juancheng. Therefore Dun gathered a small army and went to the rescue. On his way there he encountered Lü Bu and his troops, and they fought. Lü Bu retreated, took Puyang and seized Dun?s supplies as a result of Dun?s absence.

Even though he did get captured and lost the land the reason he went was honorable and should not be looked down on...Cao Cao,his ruler,had his family there and Dun went to get them and bring them to safety.
During his term of office there were sometimes drought and locust attacks. Dun blockaded the river and used the fertile riverbed for agricultural purposes. He led his men to join in the labor and he carried soil on his back like the peasants. The people benefited because of his leadership, and later Dun became the governor of He?nan.
This is one of the ways he did something useful that has nothing to do with military prowress. He was wonderful to the people and there are more examples in the SGZ translation. He garnered their loyalty and in doing so one can have thriving provinces. Thriving provinces mean loyalty,service men,money,and goods.;all of which are important to a ruler. :wink:
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everywhere,Strongest=necessity;masters all,Wisest=time; brings all things to light
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Unread postby Chao Tzu Lung1 » Thu Mar 20, 2003 3:37 pm

thxs cherry, Everything you said about Zhao Yun is the same reasons i have to like him so much. He may not haev sticken out like great commanders like Deng Ai and Jiang Wei, but he did what he was told to do. HE followed the command of his Leader & followed it to the letter. As for Xiahou dun. He proved over time & time again that he had every right to be in the rank he was in. Nothing ever came in the way of his duty just like Zhao Yun. He put everything on the line to save his family, his cousin Cao Cao, & his also his ruler. Both men did accomplish a lot for their countries with the roles they were given by their rulers. Respected by their comrades & officers, most men of this era were not respect for just doing duty as these men did. I hope more people will see this thread & not down hate on Zhao Yun & other generals of the same caliber
Zhao Yun, the best general for any ruler, but everyone has to die just as they live, even the heroes.....
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Unread postby TheGreatNads » Fri Mar 21, 2003 12:12 am

Cherry_Blossom wrote:He had to have some good leadership ability to be leading the main cavalry force.


First you should remember Liu Bei didn't have many generals then. But also that same sort of reasoning could be used for Ma Su being a great commander since he was given the task of vanguard at Jie Ting.

Cherry Blossom wrote:He did save the future heir to the throne and his mother..that is important and shows great bravery and loyalty.


Picking up a child off the ground doesn't necessarily make him brave, but that doesn't matter, being brave doesn't make you talented.

Cherry Blossom wrote:As I said it isn't all military prowress that is needed..I am not going to list anything else but he did this and he also gave a proposal to Zhuge Liang..both of these were followed and were ways of helping his country...they garnered loyalty from the people and showed intelligence.


Showed intelligence? It's a very simple idea, I wouldn't credit Zhao Yun so much for proposing to give house to people. But I will say it was a helpful thing to do.

As for Xiahou Dun:
Cherry Blossom wrote:Even though he did get captured and lost the land the reason he went was honorable and should not be looked down on...Cao Cao,his ruler,had his family there and Dun went to get them and bring them to safety.


That's beyond my point, he wasn't a very talented general, being brave is good, but says nothing about his abilities.

Cherry Blossom wrote:This is one of the ways he did something useful that has nothing to do with military prowress. He was wonderful to the people and there are more examples in the SGZ translation. He garnered their loyalty and in doing so one can have thriving provinces. Thriving provinces mean loyalty,service men,money,and goods.;all of which are important to a ruler. :wink:


That is his only accomplishment. You've been ignoring the fact that everytime he was sent out to battle, he failed! The fact is, he wasn't capable enough to beat Lu Bu, Gao Shun, or Liu Bei. He is a joke, when it comes to military ability.

Chao Tzu Lung1 wrote:As for Xiahou dun. He proved over time & time again that he had every right to be in the rank he was in.


How did he prove it, by losing to Liu Bei, Lu Bu, and Gao Shun?

Cao Tzu Lung1 wrote:He put everything on the line to save his family, his cousin Cao Cao, & his also his ruler.


He didn't exactly put everything on the line. He was only facing Zhang Miao. And also, when did he save Cao Cao?

Cao Tzu Lung1 wrote:Both men did accomplish a lot for their countries with the roles they were given by their rulers.


Oh really? Like what?

Cao Tzu Lung1 wrote:Respected by their comrades & officers,


Actually, Xiahou Dun was said to be made fun of by his officers. :lol:
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Unread postby Russ » Fri Mar 21, 2003 12:39 am

Yes, wasnt Xiahou Dun called "The Blind Xiahou" by his officers. I also read that this nickname angered him.
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Unread postby TheGreatNads » Fri Mar 21, 2003 12:53 am

Xiao Qiao wrote:Yes, wasnt Xiahou Dun called "The Blind Xiahou" by his officers. I also read that this nickname angered him.


Yep, that's exactly what I was referring to.
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Unread postby Yu Angel » Fri Mar 21, 2003 1:50 am

Are there any other importance to the qiao sisters other than being the wives of a very talented strategist or the founder of a kingdom?
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Unread postby Russ » Fri Mar 21, 2003 1:59 am

Yu Angel wrote:Are there any other importance to the qiao sisters other than being the wives of a very talented strategist or the founder of a kingdom?


Werent they going to be kidnapped by Cao Cao, and thats why Zhou Yu atatcked at Chi Bi? Not sure here, a little help?
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Unread postby Mengdez New Book » Fri Mar 21, 2003 4:46 am

Xiao Qiao wrote:Werent they going to be kidnapped by Cao Cao, and thats why Zhou Yu atatcked at Chi Bi? Not sure here, a little help?


If you based on Novel, yes, Kongming used these kidnapped thing to flame Zhou Yu into the war. However, historically this did not happen at all. :)
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Unread postby Cherry_Blossom » Fri Mar 21, 2003 6:00 am

Picking up a child off the ground doesn't necessarily make him brave, but that doesn't matter, being brave doesn't make you talented.


Actually I was shooting more for his loyalty.Also
During the time when Liu Bei was pursued by Cao Cao?s forces at Dangyang Changban, Liu Bei abandoned his wife and child to flee south. Zhao Yun carried the young child, who was Liu Shan and also protected Lady Gan, the mother of Liu Shan, hence all of them were able to escape the dangers.
the wording mentions dangers and since he had to deal with a child and a woman to protect I would say it is pretty honorable to go back and get them and make sure they are safe. Besides why be so hard on Zhou Yun about it? At least he did go back,and he did cover the retreat for his men, and did go back to save one of his officers. (at other times of course)

Showed intelligence? It's a very sim
ple idea, I wouldn 't credit Zhao Yun so much for proposing to give house to people. But I will say it was a helpful thing to do.


From Zhao Yun Bie Zhuan: At that time, Zhao Yun?s army had an excess supply of silk and he consulted Zhuge Liang on how to deal with the excess supply. Zhuge Liang instructed for it to be distributed to the ranks but Zhao Yun proposed for it to be kept in the treasury since there was no exploits hence no need for rewards. The store of silk can be distributed during the tenth month to make clothing instead. Zhuge Liang was very satisfied with this proposal.


Funny how both Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang missed such simple ideas and Yun did not. :wink:

He didn't exactly put everything on the line. He was only facing Zhang Miao. And also, when did he save Cao Cao?


Am I wrong or didn't he come between some troops and Cao Cao when Cao Cao was seperated while chasing Dong Zhou's army? And actually according to the SGZ when he first encountered Lu Bu with a small army Lu Bu retreated..so they held their own at least at first.

Cao Tzu Lung1 wrote:
Both men did accomplish a lot for their countries with the roles they were given by their rulers.


Oh really? Like what?


Okay maybe there are things they could have done differently but they did do some good even if it wasn't military (I mean iyou can have all the skilled generals in the world but if the people are not loyal and your not pulling in any money form the towns or getting food and supplies it is for naught) and I do think that even militarily they did some good things.

Actually, Xiahou Dun was said to be made fun of by his officers.


Actually I thought this was quite sad... :cry:

I guess I just like just about everyone from the era for something..I mean
like I said no one is perfect and I guess one of the reasons I like them so much is the whole honor and loyalty thing. Too many people now are out for a buck and don't care about morals,family,friends,and standing up for them. :D
Short version of a quote by Thales:
Of all things;God = most ancient;he is uncreated,Universe=most beautiful;God's work,Space=greatest;holds all,Swiftest=mind;speeds
everywhere,Strongest=necessity;masters all,Wisest=time; brings all things to light
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