Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Unread postby Mengdez New Book » Mon Mar 17, 2003 4:08 pm

I just want to add another information why Cao Cao wanted to attack Xu Zhou. When Cao Cao allied with Yuan Shao and attacked Gongsun Zhan, Tao Qian helped Gongsun Zhan, he attacked Cao Cao and Yuan Shao, this made Cao Cao wanted to teach him a lesson. Then, Tao Qian also helped Yuan Shu to attack Kun Zhou, this action really make Cao Cao angry. Before Cao Cao wanted to attack Xu Zhou, he needed to get his father and brother back, unfortunately, they were killed by Zhang Kai - Tao Qian's officer. This made Cao Cao even furious, as a results, he slaughtered the citizens of Xu Zhou, more than 10,000. :?
User avatar
Mengdez New Book
No Title
 
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2003 4:35 am

Unread postby Cherry_Blossom » Tue Mar 18, 2003 5:55 am

:P Thanks everyone for the help and for translating the info from the SGZ to help me! :P

Ma Chao's forces never had so much success against Cao Cao at Tong Pass, they pretty much just held out for a while then dissolved because of Jia Xu's plot. Cao Cao throwing away his robe while fleeing from Ma Chao never happened.


This was one reason I did ask my question..I think this was the battle that the book had him throwing away his robe and cutting off his beard.Though I know the book is by no means the most accurate source of knowledge. :?

I knew I had heard he massacred in Xu Zhou but I was never sure why or if it was true or just to make him look really bad. I still don't condone the killing of innocents no matter what but can understand better what made him go so nuts over it..I mean if your family is massacred...mom,dad,and a brother...and I thought I had read somewhere else it was as many as 20 members of the family..of course I still couldn't see myself doing the same thing in his position.

Thanks again everyone!
Short version of a quote by Thales:
Of all things;God = most ancient;he is uncreated,Universe=most beautiful;God's work,Space=greatest;holds all,Swiftest=mind;speeds
everywhere,Strongest=necessity;masters all,Wisest=time; brings all things to light
User avatar
Cherry_Blossom
Changshi
 
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2003 6:41 am
Location: Hogwarts with Severus Snape (my baby)

Unread postby Chao Tzu Lung1 » Tue Mar 18, 2003 10:30 pm

What was the relations between Zhao yun and Liu Bei? They were coinsider to be the best of friends but also had shared the same bed at one point? Was it accustomed for men to share the same bed as of they were lovers but in reality it showed their true friendship for each other? Also Liu Bei was noted for holding Zhao Yun's hand,weeping when Zhao Yun had to return to the services of Gongsun zan... Once again, did Zhao Yun and Liu Bei friendship ever surpass a "friendship"? Zhao being my favorite character was a very honrable man & gets bashed upon these threads b/c of LGZ overrating his prescence in Shu Empire. But i feel that if Zhao Yun was not around to protect Liu Bei, then Liu Bei would have died of harm then of illness. But then also.... Liu Chan would have died also :twisted:
ZL would have been put in power (Big MAYBE) & even maybe ZL would have finally put this difference with Wei Yan aside & maybe even unified China under the Shu Flag, but all speculations and highly doubtful because of the fact that ZL was not of Liu Blood line
Zhao Yun, the best general for any ruler, but everyone has to die just as they live, even the heroes.....
Chao Tzu Lung1
Student
 
Posts: 85
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 2:31 pm

Unread postby Cherry_Blossom » Wed Mar 19, 2003 3:01 am

(For the first time I am not asking a question..rest easy everyone! :lol: )

I can answer your question somewhat.....it was common in the olden days for men to share beds together without it being sexual in nature. Even in America as late as the late 1800s it was still something that happened. I think sometimes it was a way of showing how close you were to someone and how much you trusted them..other times it may have been necessity...like no room elsewhere or to save money and not get more lodgings and so on. Again the holding of hands as they wept when they had to part could show just how much they had come to admire and care about each other. I mean if you were close to someone..be it friends or family and you may never see them again well you may hug or something upon saying goodbye.
Short version of a quote by Thales:
Of all things;God = most ancient;he is uncreated,Universe=most beautiful;God's work,Space=greatest;holds all,Swiftest=mind;speeds
everywhere,Strongest=necessity;masters all,Wisest=time; brings all things to light
User avatar
Cherry_Blossom
Changshi
 
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2003 6:41 am
Location: Hogwarts with Severus Snape (my baby)

Unread postby Chao Tzu Lung1 » Wed Mar 19, 2003 9:59 pm

Oh ok :D thxs. Why does everyone down hate on Zhao yun so much? I feel he was a great asset to the Shu Smpire
Zhao Yun, the best general for any ruler, but everyone has to die just as they live, even the heroes.....
Chao Tzu Lung1
Student
 
Posts: 85
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 2:31 pm

Unread postby TheGreatNads » Wed Mar 19, 2003 11:55 pm

Chao Tzu Lung1 wrote:Oh ok :D thxs. Why does everyone down hate on Zhao yun so much? I feel he was a great asset to the Shu Smpire


Well the fact that his only accomplishment was "saving" Liu Shan might have something to do with it.
TheGreatNads
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1632
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 2:02 am
Location: nowhere new, ever

Unread postby James » Thu Mar 20, 2003 12:00 am

TheGreatNads wrote:Well the fact that his only accomplishment was "saving" Liu Shan might have something to do with it.

Oh, I think if you study Zhao Yun a little you might discover that there was a little bit more to him than that. He is spoken well of in the San Guo Zhi and he advanced in rank quickly in Shu. Zhuge Liang was fond of using him in battle. Worthless men do not achieve this merit.
Kongming’s Archives – Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel, History and Games
“ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
  — Ben Franklin
User avatar
James
Sausaged Fish
Sausaged Fish
 
Posts: 17934
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:21 pm
Location: Happy Valley, UT

Unread postby TheGreatNads » Thu Mar 20, 2003 12:02 am

James wrote:Oh, I think if you study Zhao Yun a little you might discover that there was a little bit more to him than that. He is spoken well of in the San Guo Zhi and he advanced in rank quickly in Shu. Zhuge Liang was fond of using him in battle. Worthless men do not achieve this merit.


But he didn't any accomplishments. Having a high rank means nothing to me, Xiahou Dun had a high rank, and everytime he was sent into battle he failed.
TheGreatNads
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1632
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 2:02 am
Location: nowhere new, ever

Unread postby James » Thu Mar 20, 2003 12:12 am

TheGreatNads wrote:But he didn't any accomplishments. Having a high rank means nothing to me, Xiahou Dun had a high rank, and everytime he was sent into battle he failed.

A lot comes down to how you defined accomplishments. He fought and led well in battle time and time again, enough to earn the trust of his superiors and command positions. During those battles he made no critical mistakes (which I am aware of) that placed him or his lord in grave danger as well.

As for additional accomplishments, I will let this document speak for me. Of course the San Guo Zhi is accurate, and there is also the Zhao Yun Bie Zhuan, which while not all of the information provided may be verified fact, a healthy portion of it is.

As for Xiahou Dun, he was not only a very talented military officer, he was also a skilled in politics as well. Read his San Guo Zhi. Dun held a high rank for a very good reason. http://kongming.net/novel/sgz/xiahoudun.php
Kongming’s Archives – Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel, History and Games
“ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
  — Ben Franklin
User avatar
James
Sausaged Fish
Sausaged Fish
 
Posts: 17934
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:21 pm
Location: Happy Valley, UT

Unread postby TheGreatNads » Thu Mar 20, 2003 12:49 am

James wrote:A lot comes down to how you defined accomplishments. He fought and led well in battle time and time again, enough to earn the trust of his superiors and command positions. During those battles he made no critical mistakes (which I am aware of) that placed him or his lord in grave danger as well.


Explain to me how he fought and lead well please.

James wrote:As for additional accomplishments, I will let this document speak for me. Of course the San Guo Zhi is accurate, and there is also the Zhao Yun Bie Zhuan, which while not all of the information provided may be verified fact, a healthy portion of it is.


I've read that before, it doesn't prove that he's talented at all. He did nothing to help the kingdom of Shu.

James wrote:As for Xiahou Dun, he was not only a very talented military officer, he was also a skilled in politics as well. Read his San Guo Zhi. Dun held a high rank for a very good reason. http://kongming.net/novel/sgz/xiahoudun.php


I've read that, he had no military accomplishments. He was tricked and captured by Lu Bu, when he was sent to reinforce Liu Bei against Gao ShunYuan Shu he failed to make a difference, and I think he was also defeated by Liu Bei at sometime. I'd like you to explain to me how he was a talented military officer.
TheGreatNads
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1632
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 2:02 am
Location: nowhere new, ever

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 4 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved