Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Unread postby Russ » Sun Mar 16, 2003 2:57 pm

What was the name of the Qiao sisters father? What did he do, and what relation did he have with the Sun family?
User avatar
Russ
Legendary
 
Posts: 823
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2002 4:27 am

Unread postby WarLord Lubo » Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:40 pm

I alway wonder why Chen Gong shot an arrow right through Cao Cao helmet when Cao Cao come forth in person to Lu Bu front Castle trying to pursuing Lu Bu to surrender to Cao Cao?

Why the fark did Chen Gong wanna jeopardize so many lives of Lu Bu men and himself by retaliate Cao Cao submission request? What was Chen Gong real motives?

:x ty
WarLord Lubo
 

Unread postby James » Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:49 pm

WarLord Lubo wrote:I alway wonder why Chen Gong shot an arrow right through Cao Cao helmet when Cao Cao come forth in person to Lu Bu front Castle trying to pursuing Lu Bu to surrender to Cao Cao?

Why the fark did Chen Gong wanna jeopardize so many lives of Lu Bu men and himself by retaliate Cao Cao submission request? What was Chen Gong real motives?

I’ll pick this one up, as to the best of my knowledge this event was only included in the anime Great Conquest: Romance of the Three Kingdoms. I don’t recall ever seeing it in the novel. As for why they added it, Chen Gong wanted to force the battle rather than surrender to Cao Cao. Chen Gong felt that Cao Cao would be “worse than Dong Zhuo”, and he also felt that he and Lü Bu could have won the battle.
Kongming’s Archives – Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel, History and Games
“ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
  — Ben Franklin
User avatar
James
Sausaged Fish
Sausaged Fish
 
Posts: 17934
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:21 pm
Location: Happy Valley, UT

Unread postby Xiahou Mao » Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:51 pm

Chen Gong did that because he had personal animosity towards Cao Cao stemming from the Lu Bosche incident, and had been using Lu Bu as his tool to try to stop Cao Cao. If Lu Bu were to surrender, then all his work would have been for naught. He didn't care about jeapordizing his own life or those of his soldiers at that point, he simply wished to stop Cao Cao at all costs.

(edit) Ooh, the Great Conquest Animé.. I thought I was the only person who'd ever watched that. ;) Of course, I only watched it 8 years ago or so.. I didn't know the question asked here only happened in that animé as opposed to the novel. Oopsie.
Xiahou Mao -- True Hero of the Three Kingdoms!
Pei Yuan Shao -- Sex Icon of the Three Kingdoms!
SimRTK
User avatar
Xiahou Mao
Sexy boy, Pei!
 
Posts: 1271
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 9:40 pm
Location: Oh so pretty

Unread postby Cao Zhi » Mon Mar 17, 2003 1:31 am

Do any of you have any articles that relate to the military structure of the armies in the Three Kingdoms Era? I would like to know how the armies were trained, led, organized, etc. For example, was there an equivalent to a Western "Boot Camp?" Were the armies divided into sub-units like companies, brigades, and regiments? Did the generals have a command staff to assist them with planning and strategy while the NCOs enforced discipline? In short, how does a Three Kingdoms era army differ from a Western army? Also, how did the army structure differ in the three major nations?
User avatar
Cao Zhi
Princely Poet of Wei
 
Posts: 944
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2002 10:33 pm
Location: Vote Cao in 2004!

Unread postby Xiahou Mao » Mon Mar 17, 2003 1:45 am

My understanding, and others correct me if you can, is that the armies were very loosely organized if at all. Most of the grunt soldiers were simply peasants with spears. They received very little training. The generals in charge of their units actually took the forefront and led the charge. These generals were usually more skilled combatants, and as such could tear through the opponent's peasants relatively easily. As long as the commander did well, the peasants under him would stay relatively close together and back him.. if for some reason he faltered, though, the whole line could break and fall apart.

I was wondering where I'd read that, so I looked it up. ;) at http://www.threekingdoms.com , the site where the entire novel is online, this is mentioned during the Commentary by one Dr. Rafe de Crespigny. You can read about it in more detail there, but scary as it sounds, it does seem as if the model shown in Dynasty Warriors games, where the generals run amok and slaughter dozens to hundreds of troops, was actually a decent recreation of the battles fought at the time.
Xiahou Mao -- True Hero of the Three Kingdoms!
Pei Yuan Shao -- Sex Icon of the Three Kingdoms!
SimRTK
User avatar
Xiahou Mao
Sexy boy, Pei!
 
Posts: 1271
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 9:40 pm
Location: Oh so pretty

Unread postby James » Mon Mar 17, 2003 2:16 am

Here is some information from Dr. Rafe de Crespigny, Cao Zhi:
<a href="/viewtopic.php?t=3774">http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?t=3774</a>

If I can find more information, I will post it here.
Kongming’s Archives – Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel, History and Games
“ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
  — Ben Franklin
User avatar
James
Sausaged Fish
Sausaged Fish
 
Posts: 17934
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:21 pm
Location: Happy Valley, UT

Unread postby Cherry_Blossom » Mon Mar 17, 2003 6:45 am

Okay here is another question... :oops: was Cao Cao a coward or was he brave? In the LGZ's book he always has Cao running away and well he seems pretty scardy catish...and yet in the intro or preface of my version the guy says he was actually brilliant and it(the running away) wasn't true. I mean he did go out on the campaigns..but still he could have always been in the background too...anyway to make it short which is the truth? Oh and was his attack/slaughter in Xu Zhou or was it You Zhou(sorry) was it based on politics,his father and brother being killed or both? I know I saw a thread talking somewhat about this but I don't really recall it being figured out there.
Short version of a quote by Thales:
Of all things;God = most ancient;he is uncreated,Universe=most beautiful;God's work,Space=greatest;holds all,Swiftest=mind;speeds
everywhere,Strongest=necessity;masters all,Wisest=time; brings all things to light
User avatar
Cherry_Blossom
Changshi
 
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2003 6:41 am
Location: Hogwarts with Severus Snape (my baby)

Unread postby James » Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:03 am

I will leave the first bit to some others that may be able to provide a better historical basis for their conclusions, but I can answer the Xu Zhou question. Tao Qian and Cao Cao were enemies before the incident, and Tao Qian actually did have Cao Cao’s father killed. Cao Cao, most likely, acted out of anger or revenge and marched on Tao Qian. What actually happened there is up to a little speculation, but it is clear, at the very least, that Cao Cao did not play nice.
Kongming’s Archives – Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel, History and Games
“ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
  — Ben Franklin
User avatar
James
Sausaged Fish
Sausaged Fish
 
Posts: 17934
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:21 pm
Location: Happy Valley, UT

Unread postby DarkAnthem » Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:55 am

Cherry_Blossom wrote:Okay here is another question... :oops: was Cao Cao a coward or was he brave? In the LGZ's book he always has Cao running away and well he seems pretty scardy catish...and yet in the intro or preface of my version the guy says he was actually brilliant and it(the running away) wasn't true. I mean he did go out on the campaigns..but still he could have always been in the background too...anyway to make it short which is the truth? Oh and was his attack/slaughter in Xu Zhou or was it You Zhou(sorry) was it based on politics,his father and brother being killed or both? I know I saw a thread talking somewhat about this but I don't really recall it being figured out there.


Historically he was not portrayed as a coward, as for the novel, I'd argue that also. Lots of him "running away" in the novel, such as him running away from Zhang Fei after the lost at Chi Bi, and running away from Ma Chao, never happened historically.

Ma Chao's forces never had so much success against Cao Cao at Tong Pass, they pretty much just held out for a while then dissolved because of Jia Xu's plot. Cao Cao throwing away his robe while fleeing from Ma Chao never happened.

As for fleeing from Zhang Fei after Chi Bi, there's not even any record of Cao Cao's forces encountering ambushes after the retreat at Chi Bi. In Sun Quan's bio there is mention that there was a pursuit by Liu Bei and Zhou Yu up to Nanjun; Liu Bei's bio also mentions him pursuing up to Nanjun. However, no ambush was recorded.

One case where Cao Cao did flee was the first time his forces faced Lu Bu at Pu Yang (after he withdrew from attacking Tao Qian), that was when Lu Bu's cavalries attacked and Cao's forces went in disarray. I would hardly call it cowardice, since there's no point of him not withdrawing with his troops completely out of control.

In most other cases he only "fled" after being defeated in battles, which shouldn't be refered to as cowardice, as everyone retreats when they're defeated...

So historically Cao Cao was not at all portrayed as a coward IMO, though I wouldn't exactly say he was brave. Keep in mind that as the leader, he has to value his life more than others, so normally if he unexpectedly runs into a stronger general face to face in a battle, or if his troops are obliterated in battle, his obvious option would be to run away and let his warriors handle it.

As for the Xu Zhou massacre, Cao Cao's SGZ bio recorded that his father was murdered by Tao Qian. In Cao Cao's SGZ bio, there is also two different accounts annotated by Pei, one based on Shi Yu, and the other based on Wei Yao Wu Shu.

世语曰:嵩在泰山华县。太祖令泰山太守应劭送家诣兗州,劭兵未至,陶谦密遣数千骑掩捕。嵩家以为劭迎,不设备。谦兵至,杀太祖弟德于门中。嵩惧,穿后垣,先出其妾,妾肥,不时得出;嵩逃于厕,与妾俱被害,阖门皆死。劭惧,弃官赴袁绍。后太祖定冀州,劭时已死。


Translation:
Shi Yu says: Cao Song (Cao Cao’s father) was at Tai Shan Hua County. Taizu (Cao Cao) ordered the governor at Tai Shan, Ying Shao, to receive Cao Song and escort Song to Yue Zhou. Before Shao’s troops arrived, Tao Qian secretly sent a few thousand troops to capture Cao Song. Cao Song thought it was Shao coming to escort him, so he did not become alerted. When Tao Qian’s forces arrived, they killed Cao Cao’s younger brother. Cao Song was frightened and tried to fled. Both him and his wife were killed. Ying Shao became afraid that Cao Cao might place blame on him, therefore resigned his position and surrendered to Yuan Shao. By the time Cao Cao pacified Ji Zhou, Shao was dead already.


韦曜吴书曰:太祖迎嵩,辎重百馀两。陶谦遣都尉张闿将骑二百卫送,闿於泰山华、费间杀嵩,取财物,因奔淮南。太祖归咎於陶谦,故伐之。


Translation:
Wei Yao Wu Shu says: Cao Cao received Cao Song, who carried a few hundred Liang (unit for money). Tao Qian sent Zhang Kai to escort Cao Song with 200 cavalry. Zhang Kai killed Cao Song, took the money, and fled to Huai Nan. Cao Cao placed the blame on Tao Qian and invaded.

The account in Wei Yao Wu Shu is more close to the novel version, while by the record of Shi Yu, it makes Tao Qian sound like a horrible guy who's just looking for trouble. According to the original SGZ text, it specifically says Tao Qian murdered Cao Song (为陶谦所害), so it's actually closer to the Shi Yu version of the account. But the Shi Yu account is also questionable though, I'd find it very odd that Tao Qian would do such a thing to piss off a powerful warlord, as he was an easy target for revenge.

In either case though, it doesn't give Cao Cao an excuse to massacre all those civilians who had nothing to do with his father's murder.
DarkAnthem
Master
 
Posts: 212
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 11:05 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved