Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Unread postby Jimayo » Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:08 pm

zhou_yu_musou03 wrote:thanks, zhou xun and zhou xi-does anybody know if you can give your characters ,long hair on create a general in DW4?off topic i know


Go ask that question on the DW forum.
98% of the internet population has a Myspace. If you're part of the 2% that isn't an emo bastard, copy and paste this into your sig.
Jimayo
Lord of the Thirteen Hells
 
Posts: 3308
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 1:38 am
Location: Nothingness. And that's where I'll be returning in oh, about 15 minutes.

Unread postby TheGreatNads » Sat Mar 15, 2003 3:09 am

jiuwan wrote:Some one such as Zhuge Liang's? In Zhuge Liang's bio, there was like one line that mentioned his southern campaigns against the Nanman tribes (Meng Huo & Zhu Rong)


Minus Zhu Rong, she didn't exist.
TheGreatNads
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1632
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 2:02 am
Location: nowhere new, ever

Unread postby Cherry_Blossom » Sat Mar 15, 2003 5:02 am

Thanks for the help now I have more questions.. :lol: :oops:

First I know not a lot was mentioned about Sun Shang but I rememeber in the book..LGZ's anyway that there was concern about her age by Liu Bei when he was supposed to marry her..now like okay everyone says he was probably twice as old as her but I thought someone said she was almost 30 so what was the problem? I mean the Qiao's were barely teenagers or just turned teens when they got married right? (I like knowing the little things with the big I guess :oops: ..helps me understand the culture back then too.)

Minus Zhu Rong, she didn't exist.


Second question: I thought Zhu Rong was the only woman who actually fought....and she was made up?!(I sigh and realize just how little I do know)

Third question: I read about Zhuge Liang inventing things and his wife creating the wood ox...just what was true? What did they really invent? And where did we learn that she really was involved in the creation of such things? Is she in the SGZ or something?

Thanks everyone for your patience and help I know I'm being a pain.
Short version of a quote by Thales:
Of all things;God = most ancient;he is uncreated,Universe=most beautiful;God's work,Space=greatest;holds all,Swiftest=mind;speeds
everywhere,Strongest=necessity;masters all,Wisest=time; brings all things to light
User avatar
Cherry_Blossom
Changshi
 
Posts: 396
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2003 6:41 am
Location: Hogwarts with Severus Snape (my baby)

Unread postby TheGreatNads » Sat Mar 15, 2003 5:15 am

Cherry_Blossom wrote:Third question: I read about Zhuge Liang inventing things and his wife creating the wood ox...just what was true? What did they really invent? And where did we learn that she really was involved in the creation of such things? Is she in the SGZ or something?


I don't think Zhuge Liang's wife even existed, since she isn't even mentioned in Zhuge Liang's SGZ biography. I think Koei made her up.
TheGreatNads
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1632
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 2:02 am
Location: nowhere new, ever

Unread postby Jimayo » Sat Mar 15, 2003 6:06 am

TheGreatNads wrote:I don't think Zhuge Liang's wife even existed, since she isn't even mentioned in Zhuge Liang's SGZ biography. I think Koei made her up.


Yes she did.

A letter written by her father Huang Chengyan ( Zhuge Liang's father-in-law). He wrote" I have a daughter who although is rather ugly , can help you do some cleaning, cooking and other chores."
98% of the internet population has a Myspace. If you're part of the 2% that isn't an emo bastard, copy and paste this into your sig.
Jimayo
Lord of the Thirteen Hells
 
Posts: 3308
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 1:38 am
Location: Nothingness. And that's where I'll be returning in oh, about 15 minutes.

Unread postby TheGreatNads » Sat Mar 15, 2003 7:14 am

Azrael wrote:Yes she did.

A letter written by her father Huang Chengyan ( Zhuge Liang's father-in-law). He wrote" I have a daughter who although is rather ugly , can help you do some cleaning, cooking and other chores."


Is that in Zhuge Liang's SGZ biography?
TheGreatNads
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1632
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 2:02 am
Location: nowhere new, ever

Unread postby jiuwan » Sat Mar 15, 2003 7:58 am

TheGreatNads wrote:Minus Zhu Rong, she didn't exist.


Could you elaborate more on this? I would really like to know more about this. From what I know she was the ONLY female to ever actually take part on the battlefied in the San Guo era. Maybe the name Zhu Rong was made up by LGZ, but Meng Huo did have his wife (but her name wasn't mentioned perhaps?) fight with him during Zhuge Liang's southern campaigns, did he not? Because Zhu Rong was said to be the descendant of the fire god (a folk lore LGZ wrote into the novel no doubt).

DarkAnthem wrote:SGZ was written in the late Sanguo period, right around the end of the period


Thanks for clearing up the time when Chen Shou wrote the bios.

DarkAnthem wrote:Yes there is still biasness in SGZ...


Exactly what I was trying to point out. I see some people quote SGZ like it was the holy bible where every word is exact to history. If one word wasn't mentioned in SGZ then it never happened according to history :lol: (according to those posters which I won't name)
Which is why I think SGZ is about 90% - 95% historically accurate. Because there are other sources out there.
jiuwan
Marquis of Shun Ping
 
Posts: 542
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2003 4:46 am

Unread postby TheGreatNads » Sat Mar 15, 2003 8:07 am

jiuwan wrote:Could you elaborate more on this? I would really like to know more about this. From what I know she was the ONLY female to ever actually take part on the battlefied in the San Guo era. Maybe the name Zhu Rong was made up by LGZ, but Meng Huo did have his wife (but her name wasn't mentioned perhaps?) fight with him during Zhuge Liang's southern campaigns, did he not? Because Zhu Rong was said to be the descendant of the fire god (a folk lore LGZ wrote into the novel no doubt).


Dark Anthem has said the only person mentioned on the Nanman side was Meng Huo.
TheGreatNads
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1632
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 2:02 am
Location: nowhere new, ever

Unread postby Jimayo » Sat Mar 15, 2003 12:56 pm

TheGreatNads wrote:Is that in Zhuge Liang's SGZ biography?


Nope.
98% of the internet population has a Myspace. If you're part of the 2% that isn't an emo bastard, copy and paste this into your sig.
Jimayo
Lord of the Thirteen Hells
 
Posts: 3308
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 1:38 am
Location: Nothingness. And that's where I'll be returning in oh, about 15 minutes.

Unread postby James » Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:55 am

I have split the discussion regarding the historical significance of San Guo Zhi and San Guo Yan Yi from this topic. I considered the information inside it to be informative, so this will make it easier to find it in the future. <a href="/viewtopic.php?t=4339">Here is the new link</a>.

Unfortunately, I can’t just split a part of certain posts, so here is the portion of DarkAnthem’s post which answers questions still in this thread:

DarkAnthem wrote:
TheGreatNads wrote:Is that in Zhuge Liang's SGZ biography?


The record of Zhuge Liang's wife is not in the original text by Chen Shou but part of the Pei annotations in Zhuge Liang’s bio, according to Xiang Yang Ji:

Zhuge Liang's SGZ bio, Pei's notes wrote:襄阳记曰:黄承彦者,高爽开列,为沔南名士,谓诸葛孔明曰:“闻君择妇;身有丑女,黄头黑色,而才堪相配。”孔明许,即载送之。时人以为笑乐,乡里为之谚曰:“莫作孔明择妇,正得阿承丑女。


It basically describes Huang Cheng Yan's letter to Zhuge Liang saying his daughter, although ugly, can help him with chores and others.

Cherry_Blossom wrote:First I know not a lot was mentioned about Sun Shang but I rememeber in the book..LGZ's anyway that there was concern about her age by Liu Bei when he was supposed to marry her..now like okay everyone says he was probably twice as old as her but I thought someone said she was almost 30 so what was the problem? I mean the Qiao's were barely teenagers or just turned teens when they got married right?


I don’t think SGZ specifies Lady Sun’s age anywhere, but I’d assume that she’s still at a age fit for marriage which would be around 20 (which would be considered pretty old already still being unmarried). By the time Liu Bei married Lady Sun, he was already over 40 years old, so likely that he was twice her age, but it wasn’t so uncommon back then for a 40-year-old man to marry a 20-year-old woman.

In the novel I don’t recall it mentioning her age either, only that Liu Bei commenting that he was already too old for Lady Sun before he married her. So I’m not sure where the number 30 came from.

Cherry_Blossom wrote:Second question: I thought Zhu Rong was the only woman who actually fought....and she was made up?!


As for the Nanman forces, Meng Huo is the only name mentioned. There’s no record of Meng Huo putting his wife in battle.

Cherry_Blossom wrote:Third question: I read about Zhuge Liang inventing things and his wife creating the wood ox...just what was true? What did they really invent? And where did we learn that she really was involved in the creation of such things? Is she in the SGZ or something?


The only reference of Zhuge Liang’s wife that I know of is some references from Xiang Yang Ji, which in the sections quoted in Zhuge Liang’s bio doesn’t mention anything about her helping Zhuge Liang in his political/military affairs. I'm not sure if there are any records that directly state that Zhuge Liang had any contribution in his inventions.

As I can't think of any other relevant TK officer other than Zhuge Liang whose SGZ bio might have the information, I have doubts that it is recorded anywhere in historical records that she has contributions to the inventions, but I can't say for sure.
Kongming’s Archives – Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel, History and Games
“ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
  — Ben Franklin
User avatar
James
Sausaged Fish
Sausaged Fish
 
Posts: 17934
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:21 pm
Location: Happy Valley, UT

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 5 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved