Diao Chan: Historical Figure or Ficitional Character?

[Sun jian]

If you observed Sanguo history clearly, there is no Ladies name that been written down. We only knew that Cao Cao's wives named Bian (family name) Fu Ren (mean lady), Liu Bei's wives name Mi Fu Ren, Gan Fu Ren even Sun Quan's sister Sun Fu Ren who married Liu Bei actually didn't have a name, Sun Shang Xiang was a fake name. So, a lady with a name like Diao Chan should be fake as well. Logically, the important lady like Sun Jian's wife Wu Fu Ren, Cao Cao's wives, Liu Bei's wives didn't even 'have a name', how come the historian will write down a name of a little concubine like Diao Chan?

i agree with you 100%. why did they make a big deal out of a woman who should've been at home, not scheming against every man around. i personally think Diao Chan shoud've stayed out of everyone's business. another thing, how come all those names have Fu Ren in them? were they related?

[Wen Yang]

i agree with you 100%. why did they make a big deal out of a woman who should've been at home, not scheming against every man around. i personally think Diao Chan shoud've stayed out of everyone's business. another thing, how come all those names have Fu Ren in them? were they related?

Mengdez New Book explained that, she said Fu Ren means lady. So they were Lady Bian, Lady Gan, Lady Mi, Lady Sun, etc. etc.

[Sun jian]

Mengdez New Book explained that, she said Fu Ren means lady. So they were Lady Bian, Lady Gan, Lady Mi, Lady Sun, etc. etc.

oh...oops.
why weren't their names written? were women that unimportant back then?

[Wen Yang]

oh...oops.
why weren't their names written? were women that unimportant back then?

Honest mistake

But I think we all know women were always underrated and taken for granted in history. They didnt gain a prominant stand in society untill the 20th century.

[DarkAnthem]

I thought she cried her eyes out and made a poem when she left the Han border. The version I got said that she committed suicide not long after she enter Xiong Nu.

well, I got my info from online versions of the story, so I'm not sure how reliable they are. There seems to be multiple versions of the story online, but all of them seem to have it as she was married into Xiong Nu and didn't mention anything about her committing suicide. Only one of the versions talked about her persuading the king of Xiong Nu to not go to war, I suppose that version is wrong.

The main point of her story seems to be how she was selected, but not what she did after she married into Xiong Nu (as it seems to be most consistant in all the versions). It was said that a painter was painting all the concubines by charging them, and he wouldn't paint them accurately unless they gave him gifts. Wang Zhao Jun refused to give him any gifts, so her portriat was the ugliest one, and the emperor chose her based on her portriat and sent her to Xiong Nu.

[Mengdez New Book]

Wang Zhao Jun was one of Han Yuan Di's concubines, born in 33 BC. She was married to Xiong Nu and persuaded the king of Xiong Nu to not go to war with Han. In result Han and Xiong Nu didn't have any wars with Han for 60 something years.

Sometimes i wonder why Wang Zhao Jun has been defined as one of the 4 beauties. Frankly speaking, they were many girls like her who were beautiful and have been used for political marriage purpose. (Am i right about this translation ) In the Han history, at least there are more ladies like her, let's say 劉細君 (Liu Xi Jun), 馮嫽 (Feng Liao)... All were beautiful, wise and did a great job to help Han out in the realationship with other kingdom. We also have 文成公主 (Princess Wen Cheng) of Tang, who has been defined as one of the beautiful lady in Tang.

[Lady Wu]

Kind of off topic, but is Cai Wenji (forget the non-style name, unless Wenji is the actual name), a truly named character, (wondering since there is the poetry attributed to her, maybe her name actually was recorded)

I'm pretty sure Wenji isn't her real name, though she is a real person. Wen means literary, and Ji means woman. So chances are Wenji is a nickname people gave her.

The only two women whose names were recorded in SGZ are Sun Quan's two daughters, Sun Luban and Sun Luyu. A woman's given name was considered a very private thing, known only to her family and her husband. It would be most inappropriate to write them down in books that everyone could see.

But, they all seem to give up their choice/future for their family/state too...

All except for Consort Yang though. Though I agree that she cannot be responsible for the downfall of Tang, she didn't really give up anything for the good of her family/state.

[Erdrick]

Can anyone point out the sources/origins of the various addings on of the Diao legend, as well as when she became one of the beauties?

[Mega Zarak]

Kind of off topic, but is Cai Wenji (forget the non-style name, unless Wenji is the actual name), a truly named character, (wondering since there is the poetry attributed to her, maybe her name actually was recorded)

I'm pretty sure Wenji isn't her real name, though she is a real person. Wen means literary, and Ji means woman. So chances are Wenji is a nickname people gave her.

I think Cai Yan's style is possibly Wenji or Zhaoji. Refer to this extract from the chapter on heroines in Hou Han Shu (Book of Later Han):

陈留董祀妻者，同郡蔡邕之女也，名琰，字文姬。[一]博学有才辩，又妙于音律。[二]适河东韂仲道。夫亡无子，归宁于家。兴平中，天下丧乱，文姬为胡骑所获，没于南匈奴左贤王，在胡中十二年，生二子。曹操素与邕善，痛其无嗣，乃遣使者以金璧赎之，而重嫁于祀。

　　注[一]列女后传，琰字昭姬也。

This translates to:

The wife of Dong Si (who hailed from Chen Liu prefecture) was the daughter of Cai Yong (who came from the same prefecture too). Her name was Yan and style Wen Ji [1]. Cai Yan was knowledgable, skilled in debates and had musical flair. When she was young, she was married to a guy named Wei Zhong Dao. However, her husband passed away and Cai Yan did not have any children from her first marriage. As such, Cai Yan returned back to her home.

In the middle of Xin Ping (either 194 A.D. or 195 A.D.), China was stricken with widespread chaos and Cai Yan was abducted by some horsemen from the Hu tribe. She ended up with Zuo Xian Wang (Left Virtuous King) of the southern Hun Tribe and as a result, she spent the next 12 years with the tribes. There, she gave birth to two children. Cao Cao used to be on friendly terms with Cai Yong (Cai Yan's daddy) and it pained him to see that the Cai's family had no descendent. As such, Cao Cao dispatched messagers to the tribes and offered gold in exchange for Cai Yan's return. When Cai Yan came back from the tribes, she remarried to Dong Si.

Annotation [1]: From Lie Nu Hou Zhuan, Cai Yan's style is Zhao Ji.

I've omitted annotation [2] from the original text because it's too long and it describes her musical talent.

[Lady Wu]

Thanks Great Deer for that passage! So from that, it seems that (1) there's conflicting opinion in the literature as to which is Cai Yan's real style name, and (2) Cao Cao didn't bring Cai Yan back because he felt for her... he just wanted her back so she can have babies to continue the Cai line... :wahh:

Ok I am getting way off track