Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

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Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:45 am

Liu Feng could be whatever the dissidents wanted him to be really, he would be a lightening rod for dissidents and Professor Rafe puts "Zhuge Liang suggested that when Liu Shan came to the throne it would be difficult for him to control Liu Feng, as former heir to his father"
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Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postby DragonAtma » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:26 am

The main difference between Liu Feng and Cao Zhen is that Cao Zhen had competent people ahead of him (Cao Pi, Cao Zhang, etc.), while Liu Feng had.... Liu Shan. Okay, there's Liu Yong and Liu Li as well, but....
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Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postby waywardauthor » Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:45 pm

DragonAtma wrote:The main difference between Liu Feng and Cao Zhen is that Cao Zhen had competent people ahead of him (Cao Pi, Cao Zhang, etc.), while Liu Feng had.... Liu Shan. Okay, there's Liu Yong and Liu Li as well, but....

I am really interested about the family of Liu Bei, given that we are starved for information on them. Did Liu Bei follow the old Han method of weakening and disenfranchising collateral branches of the Han family, so that Yong and Li never even had the opportunity to show basic erudition? Or is there a problem with our sources that more or less removes them? There are dozens of exceedingly important people who are not quite matching up with the events that are recorded, so they end up largely erased. Wei, Wu, and Shu all had bureaucracies and men in the ranks, but often times some of the people who occupied the most important positions in the empire, are given just a line or two, with most of the bureaucracies incomplete in our minds because the historians didn't fill in the blanks for us. They wouldn't have found such things important, leaving us vexed about the huge gaps in our knowledge.

It sort of makes me wonder if Yong and Li were devoid of competence, if they were never given the opportunity to shine, or that they shone through, but not in a way that would warrant note either as a moralistic tale or a step in major events?
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Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:09 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Liu Feng could be whatever the dissidents wanted him to be really, he would be a lightening rod for dissidents and Professor Rafe puts "Zhuge Liang suggested that when Liu Shan came to the throne it would be difficult for him to control Liu Feng, as former heir to his father"


Yeah I agree with this - whatever role he wanted it would be difficult to deny him, from general through to Emperor and he would have been awkward to control for anyone in any position of authority over him. Reminds me of Sun Gao with Sun Quan. He was a competent general under Sun Ce, briefly considered couped Sun Quan so was politically banished to remove him from being a threat. You kind of imagine that if Sun Quan had forgiven him he would have been a nightmare for anyone other than Quan to control.
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Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postby Ouyang_Feng » Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:09 pm

He wasn't threat to The kingdom, he was a threat to Liu Shan Haha.. well you know, for adopted son to compete for the throne with biological son
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Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:22 pm

By being a threat to Liu Shan he was a threat to the kingdom. Two rival claimants would both have their own factions. Liu Shan was known at court and had the support of Zhuge Liang. Liu Feng garrisoned a significant city with a large army. Left as it was civil war was a probable outcome. Infighting is rarely a good idea when you have two rival kingdoms waiting to snap up any land they can.
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Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postby Ouyang_Feng » Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:50 pm

Sun Fin wrote:By being a threat to Liu Shan he was a threat to the kingdom. Two rival claimants would both have their own factions. Liu Shan was known at court and had the support of Zhuge Liang. Liu Feng garrisoned a significant city with a large army. Left as it was civil war was a probable outcome. Infighting is rarely a good idea when you have two rival kingdoms waiting to snap up any land they can.


I know.. it will be civil war for the throne among the princes. By the way.. why are you being so serious all the time??
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Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:49 pm

It's not about being serious or not. Folks here joke around a lot. He is simply presenting an argument. If you can't take an argument seriously why engage to begin with?
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Re: Shall we discuss Liu Feng?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:34 am

Ouyang_Feng, I'm sorry if we come across as overly serious. We do have a sense of humour, I promise. Well I hope we do anyway. We don't tend to make jokes about being unfairly critical to historical figures or about dismissing each other's viewpoints. We all just feel that it is important to be respectful in that way. Generally our humorous discussion happens in the Pub section of the board, and not so much in the historical discussions.

As you might have noticed, this forum has been very quiet recently so we're all quite excited to have posts to respond to - which means that we've been engaging with lots of what you said. It just so happens that we might disagree with it - that's not meant to be personal. Largely we're just trying to understand where your coming from and why you think like you do. Please continue to post, and please continue to engage with us! :D
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