Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:57 am

greencactaur wrote:That's interesting to hear about Pang Tong doing an awful job as a minor official. My question is how would you rate him after being acknowledged by Liu Bei? To be honest its great he had several plans and helped orchestrate the yi invasion, but I feel the combined efforts of Fa Zheng, Zhang Song, and Liu bei's military expertise were the major factors for the successful conquest.


I rate him well. Partly becuase of his reputation with those who knew him in Wu and Shu ranks, the ability to think up three plans, that he offered Liu Bei something different as a bold (if possibly too bold) tactician, it does seem like Liu Bei's forces slowed after his death in Yi. It was Pang Tong who set Liu Bei on the path to take for the conquest so I would put him above Zhang Song and Fa Zheng (though his insider knowledge was helpful) on conquest of Yi
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:53 am

This paper is a great overview of Fa Zheng and Pang Tong's contributions to Liu Bei's soon to be claimant state of Han, and shines a light on Tong's importance in the Yizhou campaign.
https://threestatesrecords.files.wordpr ... egists.pdf
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:48 pm

How have you never shared that link before? :lol:
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:56 pm

I have over on tumblr, same for this one on Xun Yu and You. :D
https://threestatesrecords.files.wordpr ... wo-xun.pdf

You can find a few other papers here as well, https://threestatesrecords.com/products/
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:01 pm

Life is busy, so my time on tumblr is sporadic! Honestly though, if I see you (or archlich) post about any good sources there I post about them here, so if I don't please tell me about them... :lol:

On a more related matter, who is this guy writing about the Three Kingdoms?

EDIT: Just realised this is the same people doing the universal translation of the SGZ. They are gems.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sinkies » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:29 am

Why didn't Wei attack Wu during the battle of Xiaoting?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:20 am

The major reasons that Wei Wen-di did not invade the south was due to both being rather busy with establishing an entirely new dynasty, as well as a desire to bring them in through diplomatic efforts. Sun Quan had submitted to Han, and then Wei rule and became a subject. Attacking the south would not be wise. An Emperor sending an army to attack a subject would show that Wei Wen-di was a cruel man.

Another key issue that people tend to leave out is that while the Yidu campaign was large, the Southlands still had a large military left to spare in the east. Even major cities like Jiangling inside of Jingzhou were not apart of the conflict. If they were able to defeat Liu Bei without expending their entire strength, surely they could hold off Wei Wen-di. Wei was able to do the very same thing on multiple occasions to both Wu and Han of Shu.

Wei Wu-di had forged an alliance with Sun Quan in 217, and they worked as one to kill Guan Yu and sieze Jingzhou. By turning on them with absolutely no justification, how could the Emperor ever be trusted again? When Wei Wen-di did attack, it was after Sun Quan's refusal to send Sun Deng north as a hostage. A common diplomatic move. When that failed, he attacked.

While people can make the argument that it makes tactical sense, Wei Wen-di both did not have the time to do so, the justification for it or even a safe time span for it. With a freshly established dynasty, he didn't have the firm support that his father had won. Nothing was guaranteed to him. Had he marched south, who is to say someone wouldn't rise up in the name of the Han?

Jiuyanga on tumblr made an interesting post that documents a series of events over Wei Wen-di's reign, that may hint that he worked himself into an early grave. Quite simply, Wei's founding Emperor was a busy man and he was not of the sort to attack a subordinate.

220:

[list=]Imperial ascension ritual
Updated fief system (fief on former Emperor of Han as Duke of Shanyang)
Revised bureaucracy system
Revised administrative divisions
Began building Luoyang’s palace complex[/list]

221:

[list=]Revised system of Xiaolian nominations to bureaucracy

Revised administrative divisions some more

Restored temple to Confucius

Restored the wuzhu coinage

Negotiations with Sun Quan

Abolished wuzhu coinage

Went on eastern tour

Built Lingyun tower[/list]

222:

[list=]Went to Xuchang

Restored Western Regions protectorate

Established Imperial family fief regulations
Visited Xiangyi

Back to Xuchang

Composed his will and laid out his tomb specifications

Campaigned against Sun Quan
Went to Wan
Dug Lingzhi reservoir[/list]

223:

[list=]Built Nanxun tower at Wan
Ended campaign, went from Wan to Luoyang
Hunted at Xingyang and toured the east, gave rewards for campaign achievements

Went to Xuchang[/list]

224:

[list=]Went from Xuchang to Luoyang
Founded the Grand University, setting curriculum and appointing scholars

Eastern tour, visiting Xuchang

Built a navy, sailing to Shouchun, issued amnesties in Yangzhou

Traveled to Guangling, issued amnesties in Xuzhou and Qingzhou

Dug Tianyuan pond
[/list]
225:

[list=]Went to Shaoling, dredging Taolu canal
Returned to Xuchang
Led an eastern campaign, visited Qiao
Went from Qiao to Xuzhou

Built Dongxun Tower

Went to Guangling, ended campaign and turned back due to ice

Went from Qiao to Liang[/list]

226:

[list=]About to visit Xuchang, turns back upon bad omen of gate collapse
Went to Luoyang

Built Jiuhua Tower

Fell ill and died

Sacrifices and other rituals, orders to local officials, and more general edicts on policy not included.

Also, one of his 225 orders says that he intended to build a series of palace complexes along the Yangzi, in order to be able to go back and forth regularly to keep the pressure on Sun Quan. Imagine if he had lived longer.[/list]
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sinkies » Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:05 am

DaoLunOfShiji wrote:The major reasons that Wei Wen-di did not invade the south was due to both being rather busy with establishing an entirely new dynasty, as well as a desire to bring them in through diplomatic efforts. Sun Quan had submitted to Han, and then Wei rule and became a subject. Attacking the south would not be wise. An Emperor sending an army to attack a subject would show that Wei Wen-di was a cruel man.

Another key issue that people tend to leave out is that while the Yidu campaign was large, the Southlands still had a large military left to spare in the east. Even major cities like Jiangling inside of Jingzhou were not apart of the conflict. If they were able to defeat Liu Bei without expending their entire strength, surely they could hold off Wei Wen-di. Wei was able to do the very same thing on multiple occasions to both Wu and Han of Shu.

Wei Wu-di had forged an alliance with Sun Quan in 217, and they worked as one to kill Guan Yu and sieze Jingzhou. By turning on them with absolutely no justification, how could the Emperor ever be trusted again? When Wei Wen-di did attack, it was after Sun Quan's refusal to send Sun Deng north as a hostage. A common diplomatic move. When that failed, he attacked.

While people can make the argument that it makes tactical sense, Wei Wen-di both did not have the time to do so, the justification for it or even a safe time span for it. With a freshly established dynasty, he didn't have the firm support that his father had won. Nothing was guaranteed to him. Had he marched south, who is to say someone wouldn't rise up in the name of the Han?

Jiuyanga on tumblr made an interesting post that documents a series of events over Wei Wen-di's reign, that may hint that he worked himself into an early grave. Quite simply, Wei's founding Emperor was a busy man and he was not of the sort to attack a subordinate.

220:

[list=]Imperial ascension ritual
Updated fief system (fief on former Emperor of Han as Duke of Shanyang)
Revised bureaucracy system
Revised administrative divisions
Began building Luoyang’s palace complex[/list]

221:

[list=]Revised system of Xiaolian nominations to bureaucracy

Revised administrative divisions some more

Restored temple to Confucius

Restored the wuzhu coinage

Negotiations with Sun Quan

Abolished wuzhu coinage

Went on eastern tour

Built Lingyun tower[/list]

222:

[list=]Went to Xuchang

Restored Western Regions protectorate

Established Imperial family fief regulations
Visited Xiangyi

Back to Xuchang

Composed his will and laid out his tomb specifications

Campaigned against Sun Quan
Went to Wan
Dug Lingzhi reservoir[/list]

223:

[list=]Built Nanxun tower at Wan
Ended campaign, went from Wan to Luoyang
Hunted at Xingyang and toured the east, gave rewards for campaign achievements

Went to Xuchang[/list]

224:

[list=]Went from Xuchang to Luoyang
Founded the Grand University, setting curriculum and appointing scholars

Eastern tour, visiting Xuchang

Built a navy, sailing to Shouchun, issued amnesties in Yangzhou

Traveled to Guangling, issued amnesties in Xuzhou and Qingzhou

Dug Tianyuan pond
[/list]
225:

[list=]Went to Shaoling, dredging Taolu canal
Returned to Xuchang
Led an eastern campaign, visited Qiao
Went from Qiao to Xuzhou

Built Dongxun Tower

Went to Guangling, ended campaign and turned back due to ice

Went from Qiao to Liang[/list]

226:

[list=]About to visit Xuchang, turns back upon bad omen of gate collapse
Went to Luoyang

Built Jiuhua Tower

Fell ill and died

Sacrifices and other rituals, orders to local officials, and more general edicts on policy not included.

Also, one of his 225 orders says that he intended to build a series of palace complexes along the Yangzi, in order to be able to go back and forth regularly to keep the pressure on Sun Quan. Imagine if he had lived longer.[/list]


Thanks for the information.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:15 pm

Is Jia Chong related to Jia Xu?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:19 pm

He had no relation at all to Jia Xu. He was the son of Jia Kui from Hedong, while Jia Xu was from Wuwei. Just a case of them sharing the same name, yet having no relation.
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