Crisis in Catalonia

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Re: Crisis in Catalonia

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:07 pm

(Very) late reply, but the thing is, there is no way a referendum could be put in practice. Sure, it would please the separatists in the short term, but a referendum in this matter is against the constitution, so basically, a majority of parties have to agree to start a referendum to change the constitution to make these things possible. This would have to be voted by all spaniards and then a referendum would be a possibility. In my opinion, the government lately has proven to be too soft, way too open to negotiate with these people. People who, by the way, will take nothing except for the creation of a new state.

You can get away with that short term. Madrid could happily ig gone "not offical referendum, it has no say" and few outside of Catalan would have disagreed, everyone knew unionists were boycotting it so result was a joke, Madrid then could have hoped the Catalan independence movement overplayed their hand. At some point, the "can't give referendum" will wear thin and lead to resentment but in short term, yes it can work and I acknowledge that.

Independent movements do tend to want that and won't be satisfied till that happens, whatever else is offered. Central governments still need to work with them if they are elected or have political powers and if lucky, they will be pragmatic about it (even while bemoaning the central government at every turn). I can't speak for how Madrid has recently handled the Catalan talks though, it has faded off the papers here

The trick for any central government is to win over (or keep) the loyalty of the people or at least the self interest. Let them vote for pro independence parties if that gives them a bit of "screw the system" and if the independence movement gives the most appealing record/prospectus in the area. Not all their voters will be seeking independence but if central government is seen as treating area well enough, of giving sufficient powers, of listening to the concerns and of being reasonable, the nationalists will be seen as whining, of getting distracted and lose popularity. If the central government is seen as uncompromising and not listening, people will become resentful and start thinking the nationalists have a point.

Naturally, the rest of the country is not happy with that. And I understand them. I come from the poorest region. Our train infrastructure is so outdated and poorly maintained that it's been the source of countless problems, delays and even the train just simply stopping in the middle of nowhere. You have to understand how annoying it is to find half the catalonians demanding more autonomy, independence and privileges and have the government toying with the idea of granting those requests while, despite numerous protests and calls for help and aid, my region is still on the bottom. So, naturally the rest of the country feels pretty powerless when things like these happen. Puigdemont can go around Europe crying all he wants. Whoever allows Catalonia to become an independent state will bring about the ruin of the entire country, including a newly created Catalonian Republic.

I'm not saying you have to be happy about it. Few who advocated a Scottish referendum on the unionist side were wanting Scotland to go or liking the constant SNP blaming of England for whatever is wrong. By all means dislike it

There was some resentment off the top of my head in poor regions here about Scotland's status (I'm less sympathetic to that here becuase said regions would then vote down attempts to give them more powers whereas Scotland voted them in) and of course, the whines. I can understand the frustration though I can't speak for your situation and why things are so bad there or how it gets fixed though I'm also not sure why that is Catalans issue specifically. Maybe there is stuff to be learnt from how the Catlans have wielded their leverage and vote to gain more power that can be used? Or ally with Catalans for more power for your own region?

People can vote for the destruction of their country (says the bitter bitter Remainer that I am :wink: ), that it is their right. People vote badly. There is stuff that can be done to try to ensure it doesn't happen rather then, as Madrid did that day, turn people towards independence and you don't have to like the idea of independence.

People against the referendum aren't "against democracy", they'd just rather have to deal with a few angry people than suffer mass riots and economic collapse in a worst case scenario.

Being opposed to independence? Legitimate view. Now isn't the right time? Also legitimate. Catalan government is annoying? Perfectly democratic view.

Where it comes undemocratic is if you will never allow such a referendum even if it becomes reasonably clear that it is what is wanted there and their will to have a say is clear. Or if you arrest and assault people for voting.
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Dong Zhou
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Re: Crisis in Catalonia

Unread postby Juliore » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:58 pm

As far as I understand Barcelona is for independence and Tarragona is against. They can;t agree within there own province.
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