The "What If" Thread

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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:22 pm

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-Being described as brave/strong, fear of strength/arms, great warriors is true, he is indeed described as such, but its not his skill though, its merely his charisma/aura to make people respect him as such.

-Winning duels? err, i never seen Lu Bu won any duel against people with strength on his par before, do you? So far i read it was Guo Si who was wounded in a duel, but Guo Si was able to hold out on his own even his men would rush up to his help, so i kinda doubted it.

-Officer Kills? errr, who did he kill? bunch of bandits and 2 foster father, other than that, none.

- Line breakers, well, it was described that he led Cheng Lian and Wei Yue with dozen of horseman to raid multiple times against bandits and forced them to retreat, so it does indeed he has such skill, only when he's used right. not to mention it was his feat of being a good general as well.

- Archery feat... i thought Huang Zhong and many other people such as Taishi Chi, Qiang, Wuhuan, or Xiongnu tribes were far better than him. I mean, they can shoot while riding horse, thats gotta count something. Lu Bu only shoot a stationery target.


Two notes

1) I meant feat rather then fear of arms

2) I was talking about defining warrior vs general, not a "and Lu Bu did all this.

Within that, Lu Bu did win a duel which is rare (the other guy needing others to intervene to save life after being wounded would be a win), we don't know of Guo Si's warrior ability but he was an experienced general and was wiling to accept a duel. None officer kills but then there were only around 11 in 100 years so not surprising and didn't stop Zhang Fei being admired as a great warrior

Huang Zhong wasn't a noted archer and people weren't ranked in terms of archer skill. We do know Lu Bu was admired as an archer and that his feat in Xu wowed experienced military figures in two armies so was clearly considered a difficult target to hit.

Guan Yu was known for his strictness, everyone know about it. heck, even people of Yi Province like Meng Da know about it. Winning or not doesn't make him to be less likely to punish Mi Fang for his mistake, but Mi Fang's choice to not defect on Wu will omit him from punishment, but that might cost his life, so his choice only limited to live or to die.
It's really doubtful if Mi Fang could hold up against Wu's elite men, and one that lead by their cic (Lu Meng) it is.


Source for famed strictness?

Yes it does, it was not an unknown habit of warlords and those in charge to use victory to overlook punishment. Guan Yu would have to be spectacularly inept (even worse then Liu Feng) to reward someone for holding off Wu by killing them.

Hao Pu managed it, Mi Fang may have been able to buy time. All he needs to do, just buy a bit of time for word to get to Guan Yu and for army to race back.

err, even with no equipment surrendered troop were far greater number than his men, they wouldve overpower them and seize their equipment instead. You forgetting the circumstance that Guan Yu divided his forces to besiege 2 cities here.


and even with such circumstances with a divided Shu army, the surrendered Wei troops didn't or couldn't raise such a revolt so don't see it happening when Shu forces were even stronger. Such things happening successfully were extremely rare anyway

Okay here it is, lets imagine a moment here, you being Meng Da, who refused to send out reinforcement to someone (Guan Yu), then the next day, the said person show up on your doorstep, with tens of thousand armed men behind him. What would you do?


Let them in as is my duty. I'm probably not getting the next promotion but there is almost no chance, unless Guan Yu loses his brain, that I'll be in any danger (and indeed, his being alive is helpful to me). I will be if I panic for no reason and try to take action

Idk mate, if Lu Bu can pull off a feat like Xiang Yu during Liu Bang's day, i may be able to acknowledge him being "the greatest warrior" of three kingdom era. Maybe it's just my personal preference.
Many of Lu Bu's feat makes me think he wasn't great/elite warrior, but great/elite general. It's only his charisma/aura to make people respect him as great warrior, but charisma is just a presence, not actual skill. Without feat like Xiang Yu, that charisma were in vain.


Bear in mind it is a different era, your comparing Lu Bu to his fellows when discussing 3kingdom warriors. Lu Bu was clearly not in Xiang Yu's league as a warlord and a general but that is another matter

In terms of the charisma, so all those who served and opposed him were so incompetent in judgement they can't tell the difference? Lu Bu wasn't remarked on as greatly charismatic (as a warlord, he must have had some but we aren't talking Liu Bei or Cao Cao level charisma, neither of whom were considered Lu Bu level warriors), he was remarked on as a warrior.

One of the reason why i thought Guan Yu was a hypocrite is because i read it somewhere, when Xu Huang show up with his men, he greeted them as if they were friends. While Xu Huang's reaction were right, since he was on duty and not playing friends. Guan Yu's reaction after witnessing Xu Huang reaction is pretty laughable. I mean, why get angry? Xu Huang merely doing his duty to his lord.

Here it is, he's treated his men from Liu Bei side in contempt, but treated his enemies as they were his friends. It's like conveying a message that he was subconsciously wanted to serve Cao Cao instead of Liu Bei, but he unable to since he was bound by close friendship to Liu Bei and his own word of oath to loyally serve him.


From a annotation whose reputation/accuracy I can't speak to Shǔjì states: Yǔ and Huǎng were formerly fond of each other. From afar they conversed, though they only spoke of common life and not military affairs. Suddenly, Huǎng dismounted his horse and announced an order: “For obtaining Guān [Yǔ] Yúncháng’s head, the reward is a thousand jīn of gold.” Yǔ was surprised, and said to Huǎng: “Elder brother, why say this?” Huǎng said: “This is the state’s affair and that is all.”

Wouldn't you be a bit surprised if mid conversation, a guy your chatting with then demands your head?

One can be friends with those on the opposing side.

======

PyroMystic

Well, I didn't deny that Liu Bei probably have some reason for attacking Wu. But my point is that his chief reason for attacking Wu is revenge, and I didn't seem (as you state yourself) to find any source that states otherwise. Also, IF it is true that Liu Bei's attack is a well-planned one and wasn't driven by revenge, then why was Zhao Yun against this? And why didn't Zhuge Liang participate in this endeavor? Why did this campaign end up in disastrous defeat? It makes more sense that Liu Bei was angry and waited for the right time for revenge. When the time came, he marched to Wu with as many people as could gather, and attacked, only for it to end in destruction. Shu was weakened after that.



Most camapigns have internal opponents though those camapigns that succeed don't always see the "bad idea" advisers namechecked. Liu Bei taking Hanzhong was opposed for example, Cao Cao fighting Guandu, Wu fighting Chi Bi (and Wei fighting Chibi! :wink: ). Zhao Yun had a different calculation to Liu Bei and that's fair enough, I disagree with Zhao Yun's reasoning as to which was the better path forward but such opposition was normal.

Zhuge Liang's miliatry record under Liu Bei was joint leading reinforcements, he hadn't fought at Chi Bi, Jing, Hanzhong so not fighting was pretty normal. It was even less likely for Liang to be involved in a miliatry camapign once Yi was taken, Zhuge Liang was Liu Bei's chief civil officer, trusted and someone needed to run the home front with the young untested Liu Shan.

For miliatry reasons? Getting lax, a well organized fire plus charge, that if an army routed in 3kingdoms warfare it could turn into a massacre. Whether Liu Bei fought for revenge or a better reason wasn't going to stop miliatry reality. I don't see how the justification or reasons for the attack is going to have changed that campaign's end result.

Sure, revenge is a legitimate belief to hold about Yiling, I just disagree with it due to Liu Bei's life, expirence, the timegap between 219 and Liu Bei's march, plus the way the histories tend to get written. I accept I could be completely wrong.

As for Guan Yu, well, I tried to, but failed. I mean, I cannot come up with a possible positive motive on why Guan Yu decided to attack Fan.


Elitemsh with There was possibly a good reason Guan Yu attacked when he did. There were a few rebellions in Wei around that time. I recall reading that one of them was planning to call on Guan for support because Guan was growing stronger in Jing province. Guan had built a reputation around the region for increasing the strength of his army. He may have felt now was a good time to capitalise on some instability in Wei. from the Lu Meng thread

Guan Yu now had the resources to make the attack, events in Wei and Wu (Lu Meng's sickness) were playing into his hand, Fan was a golden target due to it being Wei's protection to it's heartlands, if Guan Yu can take it then he has a foot on the throat of Wei and can raid and attack there. Even if he fails (leaving aside the Yu Jin army he would have absorbed adding to numbers), it might open up other flanks for Wu and Liu Bei while ensuring Wei is very very serious about defending the Jing front as well.

I agree with you. Guan Yu knew very well that Cao Cao was their enemy and Sun Quan was their ally to take him down. And yet, he treated his ally 1000x more horribly than his ally. This is why I insist in another thread that Shu-Wu alliance was practically non-existent, and that Shu-Wu alliance were better established post-Yi Ling because overly proud people like Guan Yu was no more. Okay, we still have Zhuge Liang but he was a lot better than Guan Yu. At least he tried to act nicely. Is there any wonder why Lu Meng (or whoever Wu officers there were) insisted Sun Quan on executing him? Guan Yu was never be a good ally!


He had no noted contact with Cao Cao after leaving so we don't know how he would have treated him as governor of Jing. He had a chat with an old friend in Xu Huang but that's different. He treated Wu badly probably becuase Wu attacked him in 215 and he seems to have felt Lu Meng had hostile intent. It might not have been wise diplomacy to make clear his distrust and anger but if you invade someone, why expect them to treat you with flowery words?

Sun Quan was probably not told of Guan Yu's capture before Guan Yu was dead and the executors probably calculated Guan Yu was too loyal to serve a rival kingdom.

But at least we agrees on one thing: Guan Yu is not as good a person as the novel (and Dynasty Warriors) made him out to be :mrgreen: In fact, I see him more as a bully (to be honest, virtually everyone in Shu (with the exception of Zhao Yun, Huang Zhong, and Liu Chan) is :lol: )


I think the novel Guan Yu is worse then the historical one as a person but even so, why should the historical Guan Yu get hit for something he has no control over?

Shu had a population in high thousands and possibly low millions if I recall rightly, only three not being bullies? Even just restricted to the officer core, that is still hundreds and even thousands. I'm not sure I would call Guan Yu a bully myself.
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:51 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Two notes

1) I meant feat rather then fear of arms

2) I was talking about defining warrior vs general, not a "and Lu Bu did all this.

Within that, Lu Bu did win a duel which is rare (the other guy needing others to intervene to save life after being wounded would be a win), we don't know of Guo Si's warrior ability but he was an experienced general and was wiling to accept a duel. None officer kills but then there were only around 11 in 100 years so not surprising and didn't stop Zhang Fei being admired as a great warrior

Huang Zhong wasn't a noted archer and people weren't ranked in terms of archer skill. We do know Lu Bu was admired as an archer and that his feat in Xu wowed experienced military figures in two armies so was clearly considered a difficult target to hit.


Well, Zhang Fei was noted to be a great warrior because he was able to outwit Zhang He, whom skilled can be said on par on his own.

He (Huang Zhong) wasn't?

the two experienced military figures who, sorry to add, had no experience in archery, of course they would be wowed to see such demonstration, though it was an incredible feat to make the two figures stopped from battling.


Source for famed strictness?

Yes it does, it was not an unknown habit of warlords and those in charge to use victory to overlook punishment. Guan Yu would have to be spectacularly inept (even worse then Liu Feng) to reward someone for holding off Wu by killing them.

Hao Pu managed it, Mi Fang may have been able to buy time. All he needs to do, just buy a bit of time for word to get to Guan Yu and for army to race back.


It was on Lu Meng's. I meant, if he werent strict and be kind toward his men, his men wouldve never deserted him and wouldve help him to storm the castle or fought to the death to ensure Yu managed to escape. Its only his inner circle like Liao Hua and Zhao Lei who remain loyal to the end. Liao Hua had to faked his death so he could escape, whilst Zhao Lei wouldve most likely executed aftermath, since there was no further mention of him.

Well, im sure Mi Fang wouldve be glad to defend the castle IF Guan Yu weren't threatening his life. I doubt Yu wouldve known until it was too late, since it was a covert attack, Lu Meng wouldve made sure none of the messenger get past his siege.


and even with such circumstances with a divided Shu army, the surrendered Wei troops didn't or couldn't raise such a revolt so don't see it happening when Shu forces were even stronger. Such things happening successfully were extremely rare anyway


I see..


Let them in as is my duty. I'm probably not getting the next promotion but there is almost no chance, unless Guan Yu loses his brain, that I'll be in any danger (and indeed, his being alive is helpful to me). I will be if I panic for no reason and try to take action


I hardly think anyone wouldve done the same like you do AFTER you refused to sent out reinforcement to Guan Yu.
If I were in Meng Da's position, i wouldve felt uneasy when Guan Yu showed up AFTER i refused to help him, and closed the castle gate until i ascertain his true intention. So far i know, Guan Yu who was arrogant wouldve felt agitated if that were the case and threaten me the same way he did to Mi Fang. In which leading Meng Da to rebel/defect. Moreoverly those people like Shen Yi, Shen Dan and Li Fu werent very loyal to Liu Bei, mightve used this opportunity and urged Meng Da to defect.


Bear in mind it is a different era, your comparing Lu Bu to his fellows when discussing 3kingdom warriors. Lu Bu was clearly not in Xiang Yu's league as a warlord and a general but that is another matter

In terms of the charisma, so all those who served and opposed him were so incompetent in judgement they can't tell the difference? Lu Bu wasn't remarked on as greatly charismatic (as a warlord, he must have had some but we aren't talking Liu Bei or Cao Cao level charisma, neither of whom were considered Lu Bu level warriors), he was remarked on as a warrior.


Those who served him were only knew Lu Bu was the Han Hero who slain traitor Dong Zhuo, so they only serve him in mind they wouldve become famous and with other ulterior motives, with the exception of Gao Shun, whose wholeheartedly served him. Chen Gong is a double faced scumbag.

The people who opposed him, like Cao Cao and Liu Bei clearly knew he would be an adversary should he remained alive, since with his Heroic reputation, Lu Bu would attract talented men. Bear in mind, that Cao Cao wanted all talented men to serve him instead of other.


From a annotation whose reputation/accuracy I can't speak to Shǔjì states: Yǔ and Huǎng were formerly fond of each other. From afar they conversed, though they only spoke of common life and not military affairs. Suddenly, Huǎng dismounted his horse and announced an order: “For obtaining Guān [Yǔ] Yúncháng’s head, the reward is a thousand jīn of gold.” Yǔ was surprised, and said to Huǎng: “Elder brother, why say this?” Huǎng said: “This is the state’s affair and that is all.”

Wouldn't you be a bit surprised if mid conversation, a guy your chatting with then demands your head?

One can be friends with those on the opposing side.


The Shu Ji recorded an incident about Xu Huang encountering Guan Yu on the battlefield. Xu Huang was previously a close friend of Guan Yu. They often chatted about other things apart from military affairs. When they met again at Fancheng, Xu Huang gave an order to his men: "Whoever takes Guan Yunchang's head will be rewarded with 1,000 jin of gold." A shocked Guan Yu asked Xu Huang, "Brother, what are you talking about?" Xu Huang replied, "This is an affair of the state!"

Guan Yu and Xu Huang was a close friend during his time in service under Cao Cao. See this is what im trying to tell about, you dont casually approach an enemy general even though you're previously close friend before, set aside your bond for your state affairs. Guan Yu seems unable to set aside those boundary, which resulting him to be shocked with Xu Huang's statement.

Previously when he was in the service of Cao Cao, he was approached by Zhang Liao, he established himself to be an honorable and dutiful man to Liu Bei, yet he seemed to fail to understand Xu Huang's action?
are you really that naive to think your close friend from enemy states who was on duty would casually approached you on battlefield and had a chit chat about Sunday night movies?


Liu Bei taking Hanzhong was opposed for example


I'm sorry, who opposed him? When Cao Cao took Hanzhong, his position in Yizhou was already threatened since Zhang He was already on the way to attack Baxi. Hanzhong was the "gateway" to Yizhou, it should be seized if he wanted to secure Yizhou province. No one opposed him, he's even consulting to Zhou Qun, the diviner who states: "You will get the territory but you won't have its people. If you send a detachment of your main army to attack (instead of sending your main army), you will lose the battle. You should be very careful about this!"

Hence why the territorial disputes between him and Sun Quan is 'settled', since he can't fight on both front. A clever move, but those left animosity between him and Sun Quan that would span to the death of Guan Yu, Zhang Fei and himself, whilst weakening Shu for decades in the process. Zhou Qun even predicted that Shu was destined to fall.


======

PyroMystic wrote:As for Guan Yu, well, I tried to, but failed. I mean, I cannot come up with a possible positive motive on why Guan Yu decided to attack Fan.

Elitemsh with There was possibly a good reason Guan Yu attacked when he did. There were a few rebellions in Wei around that time. I recall reading that one of them was planning to call on Guan for support because Guan was growing stronger in Jing province. Guan had built a reputation around the region for increasing the strength of his army. He may have felt now was a good time to capitalise on some instability in Wei. from the Lu Meng thread

Guan Yu now had the resources to make the attack, events in Wei and Wu (Lu Meng's sickness) were playing into his hand, Fan was a golden target due to it being Wei's protection to it's heartlands, if Guan Yu can take it then he has a foot on the throat of Wei and can raid and attack there. Even if he fails (leaving aside the Yu Jin army he would have absorbed adding to numbers), it might open up other flanks for Wu and Liu Bei while ensuring Wei is very very serious about defending the Jing front as well.


Not planning, but was already sent a messenger to call for Guan Yu's support. it was Hou Yin who rebelled on Wan. Hou Yin's rebellion was probably taken Cao Cao by surprise, since Cao Cao must divert all his resource he was preparing for Guan Yu to suppress Hou Yin instead. but just like Elitemsh said, Guan Yu was trying to build up his reputation and strength first, not to mention Lu Meng was still around glaring at Jingzhou, mightve use those opportunity to attack should Yu sent support for Hou Yin. Just like Dong Zhou said, Fancheng can be said the "gateway" to Wei's heartland.
Hou Yin's rebellion was Guan Yu's golden opportunity to attack Wei, since Wei was diverting their attention on him and Cao Cao was still engaging Liu Bei on Hanzhong. Meaning, less defense he's gonna deal with on Xiangyang and Fancheng. He couldve notify Liu Bei to station men on Yong An should Lu Meng decided to attack Jingzhou while he was away to help Hou Yin. But he didn't, instead he sit around building his reputation and let Hou Yin died, hence he lose those opportunity.

I agree with you. Guan Yu knew very well that Cao Cao was their enemy and Sun Quan was their ally to take him down. And yet, he treated his ally 1000x more horribly than his ally. This is why I insist in another thread that Shu-Wu alliance was practically non-existent, and that Shu-Wu alliance were better established post-Yi Ling because overly proud people like Guan Yu was no more. Okay, we still have Zhuge Liang but he was a lot better than Guan Yu. At least he tried to act nicely. Is there any wonder why Lu Meng (or whoever Wu officers there were) insisted Sun Quan on executing him? Guan Yu was never be a good ally!


According to (Wei Zhao's) Book of Wu, when Sun Quan sent Pan Zhang to block Guan Yu's retreat route, Guan Yu was executed after he was captured. So, Sun Quan was not in a position to make such decision, the commander on the field is.

The Shu-Wu alliance was in name only, there never was any alliances even after post-Yiling. Since it was Sun Quan who ordered Shi Yi to entice Yong Kai to rebel, hence why Zhuge Liang's southern campaign took place. Wu always looking for an opportunity to conquer Shu, but never wanted to dirty their hands on it.

But at least we agrees on one thing: Guan Yu is not as good a person as the novel (and Dynasty Warriors) made him out to be :mrgreen: In fact, I see him more as a bully (to be honest, virtually everyone in Shu (with the exception of Zhao Yun, Huang Zhong, and Liu Chan) is :lol: )


he never was a bully, just like you said, He was just annoyed why he needed to work with some cowards in Liu Bei's team and not some respected warriors in Cao Cao's team, to which is why i doubted where his actual allegiances lies. Hes even looked down on Huang Zhong, when Liu Bei claims to be the king of Hanzhong, Yu was furious as he was appointed the same rank as Huang Zhong by stating “I’m better than that dunderhead!” (eventually Guan agreed to accept the arrangement). these statement was probably from De Crespigny, but nevertheless he was did furious that time.
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:25 am

Li_Shengsun, do you want to move discussion to Guan Yu thread or warriors thread (or another of your choosing)? Personally I would suggest Guan Yu, just let me know which thread and I'll post my answer there (and pm you to let you know)
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:55 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Li_Shengsun, do you want to move discussion to Guan Yu thread or warriors thread (or another of your choosing)? Personally I would suggest Guan Yu, just let me know which thread and I'll post my answer there (and pm you to let you know)


I'm merely replying to what PyroMystic wrote though, just pointing out good or bad point. If you don't like it, i'll stop. Peace :mrgreen:
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:05 am

Dong isn't been hostile, his perfectly happy to keep discussing it with you - it's just that discussion has evolved past a "What if" scenario so this thread isn't the best place for the discussion any more! :D
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby greencactaur » Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:18 pm

How about what if Cheng Gong and Zhang Mao never betrayed Cao Cao? I can see Cao Cao conquering the central plains a lot faster, and this may indirectly cause Liu Bei's death, but it can also maybe not change things at all? If Cao Cao resecures his initial territories i can see him invading Xu after Liu Bei takes over. If assuming Liu Bei is spared i can see nothing really changing, and that the entire thing of him going over to Yuan Shao happening after rebeling against Cao Cao. If he is not spared and executed then i can see pretty much the land being ultimately divided into 2 by sun and cao. What are you guys thoughts on this?
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby ky9ersfan » Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:18 am

What if Liu Bei didn't restrain Zhang Fei, and he killed Dong Zhuo?

Early on in the novel Dong Zhuo's forces are being surrounded by yellow turban rebels, and are on the verge of collapsing. Liu Bei is dispatched to give assistance, and him and his brothers save Dong Zhuo. Upon learning of their low ranking status, Dong rudely insults them, and an enraged Zhang Fei has to be restrained by his brothers.

My question is, what if Liu Bei didn't restrain Zhang Fei, and he massacred Dong? How would that have changed how things ultimately played out???
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:28 am

Liu Bei and co would be executed for blatant murder and mutiny. Even though the novel Dong Zhuo lacks the same abilities and status as one of the Han's great generals of that era, no government could accept such a killing of a senior commander. Dong Zhuo's death means He Jin perhaps calls another general but after He Jin's death, the Yuan's seize control of the court and delay the death of the Han but only for a time given the fundamental structural issues
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Sanji Himura » Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:55 am

Asking because I am doing research on the same.

Dong Zhuo assassinated former Emperor Shao on March 26th 190 by poison. As far as any of my sources have indicated, the plans were carried out in secret. However, I ask two questions in order of priority.

1. What if the assassination wasn't exactly secret to one member of the alliance? I would dare argue that time tables for getting rid of Dong Zhuo would have moved up if said plans were to leak to a key member of the alliance. Which brings me to question 2:

2. Who in the Alliance would have the potential manpower to act quickly to depose Dong Zhuo if his plot was leaked to this person?

For starters, based on my research, I can rule out Yuan Shao, though he would have used Wang Yun as his instrument for his plot. Also based on my research, Cao Cao could have acted quickly, however, I seriously doubt that he would have been in Dong Zhuo's "inner circle". As far as I know, Zhuo trusted very few people, Li Ru, Lu Bu and possibly Li Jue.

Is my research on the target?
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:29 am

I would suggest Xu Rong would be in the inner circle, probably Jia Xu as well. Xu Rong was his best general, no matter what the novel says and Dong Zhuo know that. Li Ru only really held administrative roles, Jia Xu was his actual military adviser. If I was doing this what if, I think your best chance would be to go for Cai Yong. Dong Zhuo worked really hard to get him to court and he held high position. Dong Zhuo probably wouldn't have told him but he could work it out, and then leak it to someone within the coalition?

As for who had the military prowess and power base to move quickly? I doubt any of them would have. Sun Jian, Gongsun Zan and of course Ding Yuan were the experienced soldiers of the day (who weren't loyal to Dong Zhuo). Zan was never part of the coalition, Yuan got killed and Sun Jian lacked a power base. He is probably your best bet though.
Last edited by Sun Fin on Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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