Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

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Do You think Ma Chao deserved to be ranked amoung Guan Yu, Zhao Zilong and the others?

Yea
155
70%
nope
67
30%
 
Total votes : 222

Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby Striga » Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:27 am

If you were to do that, then there are a group of others who could also join those ranks, such as Yan Yan and Wang Ping... The five were based off of who LGZ liked, and he made Ma Chao really overpowered, by sending Cao Cao fleeing, although I'm certain a few of Cao Cao's generals on their own could easily hold him off. Thus, Cao Cao just had some really bad luck when fighting Ma Chao.
PhoenixRising wrote:I prefer 6 tigers than 5. Wei Yan should be one of them.

The generals were also based off of loyalty to Liu Bei, and Wei Yan as portrayed by LGZ was a traitor through and through.
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Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby PhoenixRising » Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:15 am

Striga wrote:The generals were also based off of loyalty to Liu Bei, and Wei Yan as portrayed by LGZ was a traitor through and through.

I think Wei Yan very loyal to Liu Bei, well it's historical base actually.

Novel version, he betrayed Liu Zong for helping Liu Bei. He also betrayed Han Xuan for helping Liu Bei too. I conclude that he loyal to Liu Bei only.
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Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby Stallion Fury » Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:20 am

PhoenixRising wrote:I think Wei Yan very loyal to Liu Bei, well it's historical base actually.


Historically, Liu Bei never named the Five Tiger Generals of Shu.
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Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:46 pm

PhoenixRising wrote:
Liu Bei will not easily choose Ma Chao as part of the five tigers if he didn't accomplish anything. But the question is what is his achievement?


Well in the novel, he fights a pretty good camapign against Cao Cao, duels Zhang Fei to a draw and is pretty famous. Besides, it would look rather odd if one of Shu's most famous generals was left out
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Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby Striga » Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:54 pm

Stallion Fury wrote:
PhoenixRising wrote:I think Wei Yan very loyal to Liu Bei, well it's historical base actually.


Historically, Liu Bei never named the Five Tiger Generals of Shu.

That is why I mentioned LGZ chose them based off of the loyalty as he portrayed them.
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Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby Shen Ai » Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:21 am

I don't think much of Ma Chao, but his little war against Cao Cao showed he did have talent, so maybe he got in based on that reputation. I guess great things were expected from him since he had more support in Shu. And then he died.
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Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby Striga » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:14 am

He also had ties with the Qiangs, so he mostly subdued them, while under Shu.
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Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:22 pm

Ma Chao has, down the years, got a lot of flak for raising troops, along with the Liang warlords, against Cao Cao when Ma Teng was in Wei. Yuan Shao and Yuan Shu did the same, raising troops against Dong Zhuo and leaving their family under Dong Zhuo's control who were wiped out, possibly after the Yuan's executed Dong's minister envoys into the bargain. Does that change views on Ma Chao or the Yuan's?
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Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:21 am

Controversial opinion announcement!

I've always felt that Ma Chao got a raw deal by the general opinion of him. The man pushed Cao Cao hard in battle. Once he joined Shu his reputation was such among the tribesman that his mere presence quietened the region. This meant he didn't get the chance to showcase his ability under Shu because he was better off elsewhere.

That said, I don't think saying his actions on this issue weren't that bad because the Yuan's also did it is going to win him much sympathy. :lol: Generally I think the way the Yuan's handled the coalition was a blatant power grab that doesn't endear them to me at all. Besides, their treatment of each other shows little regard for family.
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Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby Han » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:03 pm

I have never understand tumblr saltiness on Ma Chao's rebellion. Ma Chao was given a horrible hand and played it the best that he could.

1. Cao Cao was the one trying to antagonize the Xiliang warlords. Gao Rou specifically warned him against massing troops near the Western border and yet Cao Cao still ignored him and continued his plan without sending any messages or orders to the Liang warlords. Can we really blame them( Ma Chao and friends) for trying to uphold their de facto independence especially when Cao Cao himself had acknowledged their independence during his Hebei campaign by granting them official titles and nobility ranks to go along with their authority? And if Cao Cao truly intended to campaign only against Hanzhong, why didnt he request any support from the Xiliang warlords? One can hardly blame the warlords for the uprising, who on earth would tolerate another entity mobillising their army near their territory and then just waltzing in? In my opinion, Cao Cao had nefarious thoughts when it came to the mobillisation. In the previous decade, he had his ass handed to him by Liu Bei and Sun Quan in Jing and Yang. That left only Liang and Yi as viable paths for expansion and from the Central Plains, to secure Chengdu, you need to secure Hanzhong, and to secure Hanzhong, you need Liang. And to annex Liang, you need ChangAn which Cao Cao already had thanks to Zhong Yao.

2. Furthermore, tumblr loves to bring up the fact that Ma Chao was a traitorous piece of ass for backstabbing his father. I dont deny the validity of the claim but this ignores the fact that Cao Cao was the antagonizer as explained above and that Ma Chao wasnt the only one who rebelled. Pretty much every single warlord in Liang rebelled or joined the rebellion in response to Cao Cao movements. Ma Chao was forced by circumstances to rebel. If he did not do so, this would send a message to the other warlords that Ma Chao was a weak individual which would leave him vulnerable to attack by his neighbours. Meanwhile, if he lead the rebellion, at least he would be able to assume a leadership position and if he played his cards correctly, he could gain a huge amount of prestige and further cement his position in Liang. If he failed, at least he showed character and willingness to uphold his territorial integrity.

3. Finally, Ma Chao was by all accounts a man of great ability, accomplishments and reputation. Although he lost a duel, he was a young adult and shown ferocity just by willing to engage in a duel. He had great contributions during Cao Cao's Hebei campaign and distinguished himself, fighting on even when he received injury. He proved himself capable by unifying the different tribes all of which had different agendas under his hegemony. He was also able to gain some support from the populace all of which were of different ethnicities. In the ensuing campaign, he was able to successfully ambush Cao Cao and would have killed him if not for Xu Chu's valour. His leaked strategy received praised from Cao Cao himself. He defeated Xiahou Yuan without a secure powerbase. Liu Bei was so excited by Ma Chao's defection that he publicly proclaimed that Chengdu would be his. His presence shook the entirety of the city which immediately surrendered to Liu Bei. Zhuge Liang repeatedly praised Ma Chao considering him equal to Zhang Fei, superior to Huang Zhong and inferior only to Guan Yu. Yang Fu, Cao Cao advisors and Cao Cao hinself praised Ma Chao's ability etc etc.
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