So I'm asking for examples of when spies sent detailed reports of campaigns in other kingdoms, away from borders. Your providing me excellent examples of spying networks of opposing kingdoms on key invasion points and counter-spying which isn't the same thing.
I never said there was a problem with people providing accurate and timely (though by time one gets a report of army in field, it is going to be somewhat out of date given distance) reports. Just there isn't example of something similar to Wei having detailed reports of a camapign they aren't involved in and I tend to be suspicious of such amazingly timed predictions (Liu Bei will be defeated is one thing, within seven days when relying on a report that would have had to travelled a long way so timing would be out anyway is another).
So Zhuge Ke send spies into Wei to record key defence points of places he was about to attack. Which is a tad different from spying on a camapign of two different armies, in Wu lands well away from Wei borders
I have no evidence for or against what other historians think as I said.
Show me when Liu Bei was fighting in swamps at Yiling, that is why I'm puzzled. Forest and mountain gorges yes, swamps though? I don't think Liu Bei can be described as choking at Yiling, he and his entire army failed to spot it. Wu's entire army bar Lu Xun failed to spot it, it was to Lu Xun's great credit he spotted the opportunity when nobody else is. Sure Cao Pi was a superior scholar to Liu Bei but Liu Bei was a superior commander
I don't think SGZ describes them as panicking. Frustrated sure but again these generals, including ones who beat Cao Pi and his armies, were experienced figures yet apparently they can't see it but Cao Pi spots it? They all are unprofessional and every single one loses their heads to such an extent?
Great miliatry minds fail to spot it, man with questionable miliatry record is the sole guy other then Lu Xun, were he would have to have such a detailed report that had never happened, manages to make a spot on prediction even on timing...
I was posting the full petition that is related to the spying portion.
"Have you examined the wealth and resources, the tools and weapons of Yuzhang?" continued Yu Fan. "And the bravery of the people, how do they compare with my commandery?" "Considerably worse," answered Hua Xin.
Tian Feng, Aide-de-Camp of Ji province, said to Yuan Shao, "Cao Cao has engaged Liu Bei and he cannot break off easily. If you take the army against his rear, you can settle things at once." Yuan Shao replied that his son was sick, and he would not go. Tian Feng beat the ground with his staff, "Alas, in the critical moment he throws away opportunity for the sake of a sick child. The pity of it, the chance is lost."
"Since Cao Cao has destroyed Liu Bei," observed Tian Feng, "the area about Xu city will no longer be undefended. Cao Cao, moreover, is extremely good at using soldiers, and you can never tell what he will do next. Though his army is small he cannot be taken lightly.
"The best policy is to keep him at a distance and make him wait. You occupy the strong places of the hills and rivers and you command the troops of four provinces. Keep contact with leaders outside and encourage
farming in your own lands. "When all is ready, choose your best soldiers and send out raiding parties. Take advantage of his weak points to break through in one place or another so as to trouble the territory south of the Yellow River. If he relieves the right, you attack the left; if he sends help to the left, you attack him on the right. The enemy will be marching backwards and forwards and
his people will have no peace. We shall not be tired, but they will be exhausted. In no more than three years success will come as you wait.
Yu Fan and Hua Xin compare the commanderies of Kuaiji and Yuzhang in terms of ability and readiness. Cao Pi could likewise observe the sturcture of Liu Bei military camps through spies.
Tian Feng observes that Cao Cao and Liu Bei were contending in Xu and Cao Cao would not be able to settle quick. Cao Pi could observe the campaign of Yiling and predict the outcome through spies.
Tian Feng adviced that Yuan Shao should capitalise on Cao Cao weak points during the campaign. Cao Pi could foresaw the weakness of Liu Bei army encampments
The campaign took two years to complete. And it was a stalemate for roughly a few months. Seven days isnt special.
Or... if Zhuge Ke could send spies to record key defenses in Huainan. Cao Pi could send spies during or before the campaign. And he spied on only Liu Bei military encampment. Not really two armies.
Again, Chen, Pei and Sima all are fine with the Cao Pi report thing. I just dont see how its propaganda.
Im do not know geography so thats a difficult question to answer. According to google, swamp is a wetland that is forested(?). If thats the case, the area was forested and probably had water sources considering it was near the Yangtze. Liu Bei lost like 30k troops and many generals in a single campaign. One of the most disastrous losses in the era which completely changed the landscape of the three kingdoms. Even Huang Quan was forced to defect. He choked.
The generals all said, "This was killing our troops to no purpose."
Sounds like panicking to me. Beating Cao Pi in naval battles isnt the same as beating Liu Bei in forests, mountains and swamps.
The detailed report did happen according to SGZ and ZZTJ so...
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.