Best/Favourite Kingdom (and Why?) Discussion

[Dong Zhou]

I agree with ivolga that at least part of it was a signal to his officers and his soldiers. I value my men and look what happens if you are like Dian Wei, look what will happen to your family.

Cao Cao did mourn Cao Ang (while scholars hated over-mourning, I think failing to mourn the death of your eldest son would be considered a bit strange) and one annotation suggests Cao Cao was haunted by it in his old age.

[greencactaur]

I've got an impression that Cao Cao mourning Dian Wei or prioritizing his death over Cao Ang's was to create good PR among his generals. I don't want to say that Cao Cao wasn't sincere in his grief - just that he used it to gain more loyalty from his followers by showing them that he values his warriors more than his own kinsmen.

I'm speaking my personal opinion, and I've never had a son so I don't know if it really counts, but if my good friend died I would mourn the death of the friend more then my family. I think it also kind of depends on the person. I mean it might sound weird in current culture, but I think the fact that you choose your friends, and not your family actually makes me want to care for my friends more. Maybe i'm just weird haha.

[knightofhonnor]

Personally, I like Wei the most. I'd also argue that Wei was the only kingdom that didn't suffer too badly from the death of it's first ruler (I say this as a Crusader Kings 2 player, and Zhuge Liang reminds me of an ambitious regent, the bane of many a kingdom in that game. )

But, if we're talking about some of the other rulers and their kingdoms/provinces, I've got an odd soft spot in my heart for Ding Yuan. The first lord to rise against Dong Zhuo, only to fall foul of vile treachery from one of his own commanders. And considering the armies Dong Zhuo had at the time, he was also incredibly brave, too.

[Shao Shanshu]

Shu - just for the sake of keeping the Han dynasty.
Before Liu Xie's abdication - certainly Wei.

[VinnyYooo]

Wu

They had the most brilliant people and lasted the longest. Zhou Yu's brilliance in Chibi is comparable to Cao Cao's in Guandu. Sun Quan had charisma and was a good leader - like Liu Bei but he wasn't a hypocrite. Shame everyone had the life span of a fruitfly. Must be the water in Jiangdong.

[Elitemsh]

Shu is my favourite. I can't stand Cao Cao and not a fan of Sun Quan either. Really like Sun Jian and Sun Ce though. I particularly admire the shu officers Guan Yu, Zhang Fei and Zhao Yun for choosing to support a guy who had very little to offer them in those early days. Serving Liu Bei (prior to occupying Jing) inevitably meant suffering defeat more often than not. I am a firm believer that those three could have done well fighting in the north under Cao Cao.

However its a different situation when the likes of Huang Zhong and Wei Yan sign up. At this point Liu Bei seems to have recovered and has a pretty decent army as well as a defendable piece of land. Easier to defend than Xu according to Lu Meng.

Liu Bei had to be very patient but although he had many defeats early on (mostly due to a weak army I think) he led successful campaigns himself proving himself a good commander. I think he made some critical mistakes during the Yi campaign and afterwards though. I think he took much away from Guan Yu (in terms of manpower and military talent- i.e. keeping Huang Zhong, Wei Yan, Zhang Fei and Zhao Yun for himself. Possibly selfish.

Sun Quan was an average general. Zhou Yu and Lu Meng led the successful expansion campaigns. Cao Cao was awesome but went too far in his brutality. Xu massacre was unforgivable. I also feel there were more opportunists in the Wei camp since they were the strongest.

[Han]

Shu is my favourite. I can't stand Cao Cao and not a fan of Sun Quan either. Really like Sun Jian and Sun Ce though. I particularly admire the shu officers Guan Yu, Zhang Fei and Zhao Yun for choosing to support a guy who had very little to offer them in those early days. Serving Liu Bei (prior to occupying Jing) inevitably meant suffering defeat more often than not. I am a firm believer that those three could have done well fighting in the north under Cao Cao.

However its a different situation when the likes of Huang Zhong and Wei Yan sign up. At this point Liu Bei seems to have recovered and has a pretty decent army as well as a defendable piece of land. Easier to defend than Xu according to Lu Meng.

Liu Bei had to be very patient but although he had many defeats early on (mostly due to a weak army I think) he led successful campaigns himself proving himself a good commander. I think he made some critical mistakes during the Yi campaign and afterwards though. I think he took much away from Guan Yu (in terms of manpower and military talent- i.e. keeping Huang Zhong, Wei Yan, Zhang Fei and Zhao Yun for himself. Possibly selfish.

Sun Quan was an average general. Zhou Yu and Lu Meng led the successful expansion campaigns. Cao Cao was awesome but went too far in his brutality. Xu massacre was unforgivable. I also feel there were more opportunists in the Wei camp since they were the strongest.

They definitely would have done well. The first thing Guan Yu did was to slay a general. Cao Cao was so happy that he petition to give Guan Yu a title of nobility less than 3 months entering his service. Only warlords who surrendered were given such treatment. And thats not particularly because of their ability, but more to keep them happy.

Agreed.

He was a good commander. There was zero mistakes he made in his Yi campaign.

Liu Bei Sanguozhi

The First Sovereign personally arrived at Guanzhong, leading the troops and their families, and attacked Fucheng. Liu Zhang sent Liu Gui, Ling Bao, Zhang Ren, and Deng Xiang to defend Fucheng. (31) The First Sovereign defeated these four generals who all retreated to Mianzhu. Liu Zhang sent Li Yan to attack. But Li Yan submitted to the First Sovereign. The First Sovereign was therefore growing very strong and sent troops to attack many places.

Its absolutely bullshit. What Liu Bei did to Guan Yu. No decent general other than a young Liao Hua. No reinforcements. Etc etc. But not really selfish but more of lacking foresight.

Sun Quan was a good defensive general but a poor offensive one. Cao Cao brutality was unmatched in terms of sheer numbers. The Xu massacres, the gentry purges the strangling of a pregnant woman, giving captured women to his surbodinatesm. Etc etc

[Elitemsh]

Han, I'm surprised you agreed about Liu Bei's lack of support for Guan Yu. I assumed you would defend Liu Bei. Guan Yu did pretty damn well with what he was given. He took advantage of the flooding perhaps because of good organisational skill and knowledge of the region. He also timed his invasion with civil unrest in Wei (some kind of rebellions that Cao Ren put down). Additionally he managed to entice bandits to join his cause after capturing Yu Jin and Pang De and this made central China tremble (I think that was the line in ZZTJ). He also scared Cao Cao enough for him to even consider moving the capital. Guan Yu was unlucky to have two incompetent traitors and then also Liu Feng disobeyed his orders too. He was supposed to send him aid. Guan Yu had great leadership skill in my view. Let down by quite a few of his own people and faced some really tough enemies. If he had a loyal competent general to stay behind and guard his back he would not have had to die like that. Zhang Fei brought it on himself but Guan Yu's was a sad end. He treated his men well.

Also Guan Yu had that much success earlier on in his own campaign while only controlling about half of a province.

With Liu Bei, he had Guan Yu, Zhang Fei and Zhao Yun governing Jing with Zhuge Liang overseeing them all. It would have made more logical sense to leave Zhao Yun with Guan Yu. Zhuge Liang was probably needed to help govern Yi and reinforce proper law. Zhang Fei was needed to win battles like against Yan Yan. Therefore Zhao Yun can stay behind so then your talents are shared out. Zhao Yun would also be diplomatic with Wu since he did not wish to fight them. Obviously he would never betray Guan Yu and he can carry out governing and military duties well. Giving Guan Yu the true support he needed.

[Han]

Han, I'm surprised you agreed about Liu Bei's lack of support for Guan Yu. I assumed you would defend Liu Bei. Guan Yu did pretty damn well with what he was given. He took advantage of the flooding perhaps because of good organisational skill and knowledge of the region. He also timed his invasion with civil unrest in Wei (some kind of rebellions that Cao Ren put down). Additionally he managed to entice bandits to join his cause after capturing Yu Jin and Pang De and this made central China tremble (I think that was the line in ZZTJ). He also scared Cao Cao enough for him to even consider moving the capital. Guan Yu was unlucky to have two incompetent traitors and then also Liu Feng disobeyed his orders too. He was supposed to send him aid. Guan Yu had great leadership skill in my view. Let down by quite a few of his own people and faced some really tough enemies. If he had a loyal competent general to stay behind and guard his back he would not have had to die like that. Zhang Fei brought it on himself but Guan Yu's was a sad end. He treated his men well.

Also Guan Yu had that much success earlier on in his own campaign while only controlling about half of a province.

With Liu Bei, he had Guan Yu, Zhang Fei and Zhao Yun governing Jing with Zhuge Liang overseeing them all. It would have made more logical sense to leave Zhao Yun with Guan Yu. Zhuge Liang was probably needed to help govern Yi and reinforce proper law. Zhang Fei was needed to win battles like against Yan Yan. Therefore Zhao Yun can stay behind so then your talents are shared out. Zhao Yun would also be diplomatic with Wu since he did not wish to fight them. Obviously he would never betray Guan Yu and he can carry out governing and military duties well. Giving Guan Yu the true support he needed.

Lmao. Just because I have Liu Bei in my pic and status doesnt mean I will defend his flaws, errors and failures. Guan Yu did extremely well even before the flood. Though he frequently lost to Pang De in battles, he was still able to force Cao Ren and Pang De on the defensive. Agreed Guan Yu lost to Cao Ren, Xu Huang and Cao Cao in terms of generalship and Sima Yi, Jiang Ji and Lü Meng in terms of intelligence. Even Alexander the Great and Genghis Khan would face difficulties.

Its actually 1/3.

Zhao Yun is overrated. But even his presence would have helped. Guan Yu only had Liao Hua. Liao Hua. No one else!!!

[Qin Feng]

I'm afraid I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as the users in this forum. In fact I just read the chapter when Yuan Shao goes around delivering propaganda writings against Cao Cao.

But if I had to choose now, from a superficial perspective, I'll choose Shu. Not because of the strength of the kingdom itself, but rather because of how it was formed. You have Liu Bei, a guy who is basically a peasant since he makes mats and weaves sandals for the living, who had to go from one province to the next and escape destruction several times; found a kingdom that challenged the rule of Cao Cao's descendants. Also he chose a pretty good location to found his kingdom as far as I know, since Sichuan was incredibly hard to campaign against due to its terrain.

Bottom line, I like Shu. Not because muh justice, it's just interesting how Liu Bei had to form it and managed to get so many capable people to serve under him.

It's easy to found a kingdom when you have the emperor in your possession and can afford to claim to be his protector in order to do whatever you like, but Liu Bei only had 2 soldiers he just met, a pair of sandals he made and a family name to get started. So my kudos to him.

(Of course, I say "easy", but I by no means downplay the achievements of Cao Cao, he certainly was a great man and one of the best commanders of the era).