Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:28 pm

I can't find any accounts of Liu Bei doing any banditry (or bandit like behavior) before the Runan account. Rafe de Crespigny notes Liu Bei did join Guanqiu Yi to deal with rebels in Danyang, promoted to a magistrate, but was driven out by bandits.

What the-archlich said is somewhat similar to what Rafe de Crespigny said
Liu Bei had small interest in books but too pleasure in dogs and horses, in music and in fine clothing. He enjoyed the life of a fighting man and he treated his subordinates well and many young men were anxious to join him. At an early stage Liu Bei acquired his two companions Guan Yu and Zhang Fei. There is no historical account of the celebrated and romantic Oath of the Peach Garden, but they treated one another as brothers and the other two gave Liu Bei the utmost loyalty and service. Zhang Shiping and Su Shuang, moreoever, two wealth merchents of Zhongshan, admired Liu Bei and presented him with gold and other valuables so that he was able to recruit a large number of followers.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:01 pm

Explain to me how this

Zhang Shiping and Su Shuang, moreoever, two wealth merchents of Zhongshan, admired Liu Bei and presented him with gold and other valuables so that he was able to recruit a large number of followers.


And this

He and, after receiving some money from some merchants named Zhang Shiping and and Su Shuang (and I’m not entirely convinced they gave it willingly)


Is somewhat similar.


:wink:
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:04 pm

I am not convinced

Would be opinion. He mentions them giving the big eared villain money, as does RDC, then he states what he thinks. I don't personally agree since the text doesn't mention it at all, but that one line at the end is opinion over fact. At least that's how I view it.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:06 pm

Fair enough. Thanks for your complete honesty.

But admittedly RDC made it out to be a solely positive thing while Archlich tried to attach a negative connotation to it. :wink:

Thats how I view it.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:09 pm

That's completely fair to say, I think he did make it seem more negative than RDC made it out to be, through the addition of his view on it. I agree 100%.

I don't know why he thinks that way personally. I myself don't have the greatest view on Liu Bei, but I have no reason to go against an account that presents 100% willing parties to give and take the gifts.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:27 pm

I agree 100% too.

Agreed. I dont particularly like Xiahou AhMan but Im not going to make up stuff from thin air about that dude to shoot him with! I have plenty of ammo already! :D
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:14 pm

Fornadan wrote:My attempt at translation:

1st Year of Zhongping [31 January 184 – 17 February 185]
Spring, 1st Month [31 January – 28 February 184]: Zhang Jue of Julu planned rebellion. Earlier, Jue and his younger brothers Liang良 and Bao called themselves Great Doctors, serving the Way of the Good. Those sick or ill each time knelt and bowed, and admitted their faults. Those sick increasingly turned to lie about the glory to each other. After more than ten years, the disciples numbered a hundred thousand people, spreading across Under Heaven. They set up 36 wards, each having a master. At the time of the 5th day of the 3rd month, they were to raise troops, and at same time come out together. Jue's disciple, Tang Ke of Jiyin, sent up a letter to inform on Jue. The Son of Heaven dispatched envoys to arrest Jue. Jue and others knew the affair was already revealed, and therefore from dawn to night organized the wards, with urgent orders to raise troops.

2nd Month [29 February – 29 March]: Jue and others raised troops, from time to time the villages assembled several tens of hundred rows, the greater were more than ten thousand people, the lesser were six or seven thousand people. The provinces and commanderies hurried and flurried to lose possession. The 2 000 shi and the Senior Clerks all abandoned the cites to escape and flee. The Imperial Capital trembled. Jue's faction all attached yellow head-cloth, because of this Under Heaven called them the “Yellow Head-cloth Traitors”.

中平元年
春正月,鉅鹿人張角謀反。
初,角弟良,弟寶自稱大醫,事善道,疾病者輒跪拜首過,病者頗愈,轉相誑耀。十餘年間,弟子數十萬人,周遍天下,置三十六坊,各有所主。期三月五日起兵,同時俱發。角弟子濟陰人唐客上書告角,天子遣使者捕角。角等知事已露,因晨夜敕諸坊,促令起兵。
二月,角等皆舉兵,往往屯聚數十百輩,大者萬餘人,小者六七千人。州郡倉卒失據,二千石長吏皆棄城遁走,京師振動。角黨皆著黃巾,故天下號曰「黃巾賊」。


Thanks for taking the time to translate that for me Fornadan. :D
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:20 am

I do not know where to post this so I decided to just post it here because I really want to share this with all of you.

Credit to: JiuYangDa

https://jiuyangda.tumblr.com

Defending some people that I thought I would never be defending
Why these people, even if overrated by some, were still important:

Xiahou Dun was the most trusted of all the military officers under Taizu, and received special honors with which none could compare. From when Taizu first raised troops, Xiahou Dun was his second-in-command, and with Xun Yu and Cheng Yu he prevented total disaster when Zhang Miao and Chen Gong rebelled. He managed and defended the rear during Taizu’s conquest of the north of the Yellow River, and his command of twenty six legions at Juchao was credited with Sun of Kuaiji’s surrender. After the death of Taizu, he became the highest ranking military officer, at his deathbed the King of Wei personally mourned him, and when the Taizu Temple was established, he along with Cao Ren and Cheng Yu were the first to receive sacrifices in accompaniment to Taizu.

Guan Yu was Xianzhu’s most senior and most trusted military officer, and repeatedly given command of secondary bases while Xianzhu was away. When Xianzhu rebelled against Taizu and occupied Xiaopei, Guan Yu remained at Xiapi and managed Xu province. When Xianzhu fled from Fan, he entrusted Guan Yu to commandeer the Han river navy, and with the navy Guan Yu rescued Xianzhu as he fled from his defeat at Changban. When Xianzhu invaded Yi province, Guan Yu was entrusted to hold Jing. The initial stages of his campaign against Fan were resounding successes, capturing Yu Jin and killing Pang De, and threatening to link up with malcontents and bandits across the central plains so that Taizu discussed evacuating the Emperor in open Court. That he later blundered against Xu Huang and Lü Meng does not detract from the severity of his threat or his personal military prestige before then. In his own time he was appraised by Cheng Yu as a “match for ten thousand men,” slew Yan Liang in the midst of the enemy lines, and when the Emperor Wen was discussing Xianzhu’s prospects against Wu, his attendants appraised Guan Yu as having been Shu’s only General of note.

Lü Bu was a famed warrior in his own time, with strength said to surpass other men. When he fled east after killing Dong Zhuo, he spent time in alliance with Yuan Shao, where he led cavalry to repeatedly tear through the forces of Zhang Yan until “Chitu among horses, Lü Bu among men” became a saying. Moving south he sought to establish authority of his own, first battling Taizu for control of Yan province for a year, and then seizing Xu province from under Xianzhu, and from there he humiliated Yuan Shu’s armies and plundered south of the Huai. Though he was later destroyed, he was easily Taizu’s most dangerous threat to the east, and there were not many warlords who could claim authority on provincial scale; if his peak size and power as a warlord was below the likes of the two Yuan or Liu Biao, it was still comparable to the likes of Gongsun Zan or Tao Qian, or even larger than the likes of Zhang Yang, Zhang Xiu, or Zhang Lu.

Alright, now that I’ve painted a target on my face, bring it on.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:58 pm

So... according to wikipedia:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuge_L ... xpeditions

When Zhuge Liang learnt of the Wei forces' approach, he split his forces into two groups – one group to remain at Mount Qi while he led the other group to attack Shanggui County. He defeated Guo Huai, Fei Yao and Dai Ling in battle and ordered his troops to collect the harvest in Shanggui County. In response, Sima Yi turned back from Mount Qi, headed to Shanggui County, and reached there within two days. By then, Zhuge Liang and his men had finished harvesting the wheat and were preparing to leave.[37]

[37] (亮聞大軍且至,乃自帥衆將芟上邽之麥。 ... 於是卷甲晨夜赴之,亮望塵而遁。) Jin Shu vol. 1.

In response, Zhuge Liang ordered Wei Yan, Wu Ban and Gao Xiang to lead troops to engage the enemy outside Lucheng. The Wei army lost the battle, along with 3,000 troops and some equipment.[42]

[42] (亮使魏延、高翔、吳班赴拒,大破之,獲甲首三千級、玄鎧五千領、角弩三千一百張,宣王還保營。) Han Jin Chunqiu annotation in Sanguozhi vol. 35.

Are these reliable?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:08 pm

Han wrote:So... according to wikipedia:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuge_L ... xpeditions

When Zhuge Liang learnt of the Wei forces' approach, he split his forces into two groups – one group to remain at Mount Qi while he led the other group to attack Shanggui County. He defeated Guo Huai, Fei Yao and Dai Ling in battle and ordered his troops to collect the harvest in Shanggui County. In response, Sima Yi turned back from Mount Qi, headed to Shanggui County, and reached there within two days. By then, Zhuge Liang and his men had finished harvesting the wheat and were preparing to leave.[37]

[37] (亮聞大軍且至,乃自帥衆將芟上邽之麥。 ... 於是卷甲晨夜赴之,亮望塵而遁。) Jin Shu vol. 1.


Guo Huai's SGZ states

In the second year of Taihe (228), Shu-Han’s Prime Minister Zhuge Liang marched to Qishan. He dispatched General Ma Su to Jieting and Gao Xiang to camp at Lieliu. Zhang He attacked Ma Su, while Guo Huai attacked Gao Xiang’s camp; both Shu-Han generals were defeated. Later, Guo Huai also defeated the noted Qiang leader, Tang Ti of Longxi, at Fuhan. He was promoted to General Who Establishes Might.

In the fifth year of Taihe (231), Shu-Han again marched to Lucheng. At that time, there was no grain in Longyou, so there was discussion of bringing in shipments from Guanzhong. Guo Huai used his power and his kindness to convince the Qiang and other tribes to have their families send the grain. They allowed his transports, and the army had sufficient supplies. He was promoted to General Who Displays Valor.

In the second year of Qinglong (234), Zhuge Liang marched to Xie Valley, and established farms at Lankeng. At this time, Sima Yi was stationed with his army south of the Wei River. Guo Huai predicted that Zhuge Liang would certainly contend for the northern plains, and that the Cao-Wei troops should prepare for that by occupying them first. In discussing this, most of the others said that it was unsuitable. Guo Huai said, “If Zhuge Liang crosses the Wei River, mounts the plains, and brings his troops to the northern hills, then he will hold the passes through the Long Mountains. If he does that, he will disturb the people and the tribes. That will not benefit the state.” Sima Yi thought this was good advice, so Guo Huai forthwith stationed troops at the northern plains. Before he had even completed his ramparts, the Shu-Han soldiers arrived in great numbers. Guo Huai counter-attacked and drove them back.

After several days, Zhuge Liang led his men to march west. Many of the Cao-Wei generals believed he intended to attack Xiwei; only Guo Huai believed that Zhuge Liang merely wanted to show the appearance of moving west, to draw off a great part of their army, and that his true aim was just to attack Yangsui. As Guo Huai predicted, during that night, the Shu-Han soldiers attacked Yangsui, but because defenses had been prepared there, they did not obtain it.


No mention of Zhuge Liang succeeded in 231, or getting grain here.


Han wrote:In response, Zhuge Liang ordered Wei Yan, Wu Ban and Gao Xiang to lead troops to engage the enemy outside Lucheng. The Wei army lost the battle, along with 3,000 troops and some equipment.[42]

[42] (亮使魏延、高翔、吳班赴拒,大破之,獲甲首三千級、玄鎧五千領、角弩三千一百張,宣王還保營。) Han Jin Chunqiu annotation in Sanguozhi vol. 35.

Are these reliable?


This is in an annotation to Zhuge Liang's SGZ, however it isn't a word for word recreation of this translation I have which you can find here http://web.archive.org/web/200512231738 ... _Liang.pdf Password is 3k.net I prefer not to trust the Han Jin Chunqiu myself, it's not mentioned in the SGZ proper in Wei Yan or Zhuge Liang's SGZ's. So I am going to say it isn't accurate, if someone wants to chime in with proof I'd gladly take it.
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