Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby PeanutButterToast » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:14 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Somewhat. Not in a "polls were conducted" way but things like where people moved to or away from but mostly when we discuss popularity, it will be around officer core/gentry. Those come from statements within the histories, comments of the time (though one has to take into account propaganda) and what the actions indicate.

Anyone you had in mind?


Any of them really, but if I had to choose, I'd say Cao Cao.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:11 am

Wei: Cao Cao does seem to have been popular (outside of Xu ala Chang Ban), people moved to be in his lands becuase he ran an efficient government, some noted figures joined him becuase they admired his rule of law. There were issues at times with gentry due to execution of people like Bian Rang and Kong Rong and his collection of mystics clearly caused an issue. Cao Pi was able to become Emperor, did get a black mark for executing Bao Xun but not sure about general popularity. Cao Rui seems to have been well liked by his court but building projects don't seem to have been popular (might have been exaggerated bit after Wei's fall though)

Wei's popularity with gentry seems to have dwindled as though Pi and Rui were confucian rulers who acted against the rise of neo-daosim but they got blame for it, Cao's empresses tended not to be of noble stock, private lives (Rui was possibly bisexual, allowed women to write some of his correspondence). Cao Shuang took a major popularity hit with Xing Shi defeat, we don't know how public generally felt about his regime but the gentry hated it, radical reformers, moving power away from Confucian gentry, figures like He Yan (brilliant philosopher and intellect, Neo-daoist, very arrogant, accusations of make up wearing, vain, drug taking, believe he had an active love life) didn't help. Empress Dowger Guo (Rui's wife) seems to have have had some popularity in court as rebels and Sima's all worked hard to make it seem she was on their side

Shu: Liu Bei seems to have been at least somewhat popular when in Jing given Chang Ban (though how much of that was also Xu refugees panicking over Cao Cao) and plenty of lords/advisers were against killing Liu Bei becuase he had popular support, it was also something Wu was aware of. Within Yi itself, Liu Bei and his court were seen as outsiders (not helped by influx of Jing officers, a sense they didn't think much of some Yi scholars or raiding the treasury) for a cause they didn't really give a damn about. Liu Shan seems to have had some loyalty and liking from court but the populace seemed to base their reactions on who was minister, the 4 great ministers were highly popular, Jiang Wei was highly despised and Qiao Zhou warned if Liu Shan fled Chengdu he would risk death.

Wu: I'm less certain on. Sun Ce seems to have had some popularity but his issues on respect, Yu Ji, Lady Wu warning him off a few kills indicate it was fragile. As Sun Quan turned Wu prosperous, they did get some influx of people but Sun Quan's control of gentry very much relied on his strength of personality and issues arose when that faded. Sun Liang was a young puppet ruler, Zhuge Ke was very very popular until he wasn't, I somewhat wonder if Sun Chen took backlash due to succesor who was unpopular, Sun Xiu's regime was unpopular due to his corrupt higher ups. Sun Hao was initially popular and while some aspects of his tyranny do seem to be propaganda, there were some major revolts and Du Yu did feel Wu's court was crippled by Hao's paranoia.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Rezko_Kanashi » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:28 pm

Which child of Cao Cao's was born first? Cao Zhi or Cao Zhang? I went back and played some of the older Dynasty Warriors game and it claims that the yellow beard was born third, and second to Bian. I knew that Cao Zhi was involved in the succession struggle against Cao Pi, but is that because Cao Zhang had died before the stuggle took place, or was it actually Cao Zhi that was third born?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Xu Yuan » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:49 pm

Cao Ang was Cao Cao's first child. Cao Pi was his second, Zhi was his third, Zhang was his fourth. Pi, Zhi, and Zhang all had the same mother who was Cao Cao's principal wife, hence why the Succession Struggle focused on those three in particular.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Rezko_Kanashi » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:59 am

Cao Ang, Cao Pi, Cao Zhi, Cao Zhang. Cao Pi's mother was Lady Bian right? Was Cao Zhang's mother Bian as well?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby capnnerefir » Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:06 am

Slight correction: Cao Pi was Cao Cao's third son (and fourth child).

Cao Cao's wife was Lady Ding, but she had no children. His first concubine was Lady Liu (died around 179). She gave birth to Ang, Shuo, and a daughter (the future Princess of Qinghe). All three of them were older than Cao Pi.

Lady Bian was Cao Cao's second concubine (and later wife). Cao Pi was the eldest of these, followed by Zhang, Zhi, and Xiong.

Cao Ang famously died at Wan in 197, and Shuo passed away due to natural causes. That's how Cao Pi became eldest son and his heir.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DragonAtma » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:11 am

Keep in mind that seniority is not everything; when Cao Chong died in 208, Cao Cao told Cao Pi something like "Cao Chong's death is misfortune for me, but good luck for you.". I don't know the exact order of Cao Cao's kids (he had 25 of them!), but Cao Pi and Cao Zhi were definitely older than him; Cao Zhang probably was, and some of the others may have been as well.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby greencactaur » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:33 pm

What was the name of Cao Cao's first daughter? I heard there's a story where when Cao Pi became emperor one of his daughters was ashamed because she was married to the emperor, so she took the imperial seal and threw it. I think she also ended up committing suicide. Is that true?

Also what was life like for a daughter of a lord/important person? Did they just turn of age get sent off to get married, and than just live in their own house surrounded by guards with nothing to do? Or did they actually have freedom where they could go out albeit surrounded by guards....
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby capnnerefir » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:53 pm

Cao Cao's oldest daughter (born to Lady Liu; raised by Lady Ding) eventually became the Princess of Qinghe and married Xiahou Mao. Her personal name is unrecorded. (I've seen a lot of people call her Cao Qinghe, but that was he fief, not her name.)

The woman you're thinking of is Cao Jie (who was not Cao Cao's oldest daughter). She, along with her sisters Cao Xian and Cao Hua, became concubines to Liu Xie. And when Fu Shou was depose in 214, Cao Jie became the next and last Han empress. Cao Jie wasn't ashamed to have married Liu Xie - she was furious at Cao Pi for deposing her husband. She did not commit suicide; she lived until she was in her 60s and died in the year 260. She was buried as a Han empress rather than a Wei duchess in honor of her former status.

The sons and daughters of the emperor had little freedom. As with most aspects of Han culture, it was easier for sons. They were enfeoffed as princes and given commanderies as their fiefs. The prince had the right of travel within his commandery, although he needed special permission to go beyond its borders. A prince had no say in how the commandery was run (and princes found to be interfering with government were harshly punished) but he enjoyed a large pension and was always cared for from the empire's tax revenue. Daughters were given smaller, county-sized territories like those a marquis would receive. They had considerably less freedom and wealth. But they probably weren't watched as closely as the princes, since there wasn't a realistic chance of a daughter trying to take power.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:46 am

Interesting questions Green. :D Were Princesses' permitted to marry Cap?
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