Israel vs Hamas

[Human5]

I'm curious about people's stance in this conflict.

[WeiWenDi]

I'm against collective punishment, against human rights hypocrisy, against double standards and for peace.

Speaking as an Orthodox Christian, my religious sympathies are with the Palestinian people, not with the Hamas militants. And speaking as an ethnic Jew, Hamas unequivocally sucks and I won't shed any tears when it gets tossed in the dustbin. But facts are facts, and Hamas doesn't bear responsibility for starting this particular conflict. What Israel is doing now with Operation Protective Edge I don't think I can justify on the merits, either in realist terms of collective self-interest, or in terms of human rights.

[Barbarster]

But facts are facts, and Hamas doesn't bear responsibility for starting this particular conflict. What Israel is doing now with Operation Protective Edge I don't think I can justify on the merits, either in realist terms of collective self-interest, or in terms of human rights.

Well Hamas do bear responsibility because they're the ones who shot the rockets first.

[WeiWenDi]

Well Hamas do bear responsibility because they're the ones who shot the rockets first.

Hamas did not kidnap or kill the three Israeli teenagers. That was done by the rogue Qawasmeh clan. The entire Israeli military operation against Hamas that happened afterward was a result of Netanyahu's irresponsible claims in the press and the unreasonable actions of the IDF.

Israel is indeed justified in defending itself against the rocket attacks. But I say it again: Hamas does not bear responsibility for starting this conflict. Israel chose to undertake Operation Brother's Keeper, and to undertake it in such a way that made Palestinian retaliation practically inevitable.

[Dong Zhou]

After Israel is satisfied they have taken out enough rockets and tunnels... then what? What is their long term plan? They don't seem willing to just go "sod it" and seize the whole of Palestine, they don't seem remotely interested in creating conditions for a long term peace so even when this crises is done, how long till the next attack on Gaza? Is there any semblance of a long term plan?

I get the sense Israel is losing international sympathy in Europe but that may partly be related to how much Netanyahu annoys us

[Shikanosuke]

Well Hamas do bear responsibility because they're the ones who shot the rockets first.

Hamas did not kidnap or kill the three Israeli teenagers. That was done by the rogue Qawasmeh clan. The entire Israeli military operation against Hamas that happened afterward was a result of Netanyahu's irresponsible claims in the press and the unreasonable actions of the IDF.

Israel is indeed justified in defending itself against the rocket attacks. But I say it again: Hamas does not bear responsibility for starting this conflict. Israel chose to undertake Operation Brother's Keeper, and to undertake it in such a way that made Palestinian retaliation practically inevitable.

WWD I know we're often at (or perceive ourselves to be at) opposite ends of the spectrum on the Israel/Pal divide but you're going to have to explain this to me.

There seems to be alot of 'he said she said'. Israel says the suspect who Shin Bet gave to them has confessed they had received instructions from Hamas leadership. Whether or not that confession is credible or not I'm not sure. But I'm fairly reluctant to act as if Hamas and this 'rogue' clan are truly separate. We know the clan funds Hamas. We know Hamas and the clan have a heavily-interlinked past, and likely present and future. I also believe Hamas was looking for a provocation. They'd been preparing, and the Unity government doesn't likely favor their tactics and cause. Furthermore, Hamas didn't come out of the gates condemning it. They praised it.

In addition to that, does it matter if two rogue clan agents perpetrated this? If we're to assume Hamas is in control of the area and they can't control/protect their territory from marauding bands of thugs/terrorists who will kidnap and execute Israelis then I think Hamas should expect the IDF to come knocking.

After Israel is satisfied they have taken out enough rockets and tunnels... then what? What is their long term plan? They don't seem willing to just go "sod it" and seize the whole of Palestine, they don't seem remotely interested in creating conditions for a long term peace so even when this crises is done, how long till the next attack on Gaza? Is there any semblance of a long term plan?

I get the sense Israel is losing international sympathy in Europe but that may partly be related to how much Netanyahu annoys us

I'm not sure there has ever been a semblance of a long-term plan from almost any group (sans Hamas's desire to eradicate all Jews). Our plans aren't exactly met by either side with much appreciation.

[Jebusrocks]

Well Hamas do bear responsibility because they're the ones who shot the rockets first.

Hamas did not kidnap or kill the three Israeli teenagers. That was done by the rogue Qawasmeh clan. The entire Israeli military operation against Hamas that happened afterward was a result of Netanyahu's irresponsible claims in the press and the unreasonable actions of the IDF.

Israel is indeed justified in defending itself against the rocket attacks. But I say it again: Hamas does not bear responsibility for starting this conflict. Israel chose to undertake Operation Brother's Keeper, and to undertake it in such a way that made Palestinian retaliation practically inevitable.

You do know that the Israelis have offered (pretty much since the beginning of the conflict) a ceasefire to Hamas? Not only did Hamas reject all of it, pretty much the day after they signed the ceasefire they began shelling rockets into Israel again...

Don't get me wrong, the extent to which Israel is punishing Palestine for the actions of Hamas is unjustified and clearly a violation of human rights, but to claim that Hamas does not bear responsibility is outright untrue.. what is more sad is that Hamas (once a beacon of hope for the Palestinian people) leadership have left Palestine and are resting peacefully and luxuriously in Four star hotels in Qatar, Kuwait and the like while their people suffer.

My personal opinion on the conflict is that the Israelis are unjustified in all of their actions against Palestine. It is morally wrong, lacks a clear strategic goal, and most importantly it is doing the exact opposite of what they should be doing. I still don't know why countries like Israel believe that acts of "terror" is an effective method of subduing a nation; it has proven, since the days of the Spanish Civil War, that it does not work. More importantly it t grows sympathy from both foreign observers and the local populace. Dumb move Israel... dumb move...

[Shikanosuke]

Well Hamas do bear responsibility because they're the ones who shot the rockets first.

Hamas did not kidnap or kill the three Israeli teenagers. That was done by the rogue Qawasmeh clan. The entire Israeli military operation against Hamas that happened afterward was a result of Netanyahu's irresponsible claims in the press and the unreasonable actions of the IDF.

Israel is indeed justified in defending itself against the rocket attacks. But I say it again: Hamas does not bear responsibility for starting this conflict. Israel chose to undertake Operation Brother's Keeper, and to undertake it in such a way that made Palestinian retaliation practically inevitable.

You do know that the Israelis have offered (pretty much since the beginning of the conflict) a ceasefire to Hamas? Not only did Hamas reject all of it, pretty much the day after they signed the ceasefire they began shelling rockets into Israel again...

Don't get me wrong, the extent to which Israel is punishing Palestine for the actions of Hamas is unjustified and clearly a violation of human rights, but to claim that Hamas does not bear responsibility is outright untrue.. what is more sad is that Hamas (once a beacon of hope for the Palestinian people) leadership have left Palestine and are resting peacefully and luxuriously in Four star hotels in Qatar, Kuwait and the like while their people suffer.

My personal opinion on the conflict is that the Israelis are unjustified in all of their actions against Palestine. It is morally wrong, lacks a clear strategic goal, and most importantly it is doing the exact opposite of what they should be doing. I still don't know why countries like Israel believe that acts of "terror" is an effective method of subduing a nation; it has proven, since the days of the Spanish Civil War, that it does not work. More importantly it t grows sympathy from both foreign observers and the local populace. Dumb move Israel... dumb move...

I think we have different definitions of 'terror' concerning the IDF tactics.


Anyhow, I think its of relevance to the recent topic that it appears now that Hamas is taking responsibility for the kidnappings we were discussing earlier. I know it's new news story so more may come to light (and we can interpret it how it how we like). But hey, worth mentioning.

[DreamGoddessLindsey]

I firmly side with Israel. They're being victimized by Middle Eastern Muslims, who want to annihilate all Jews. That's Hitler-esque. I think it's hilarious that when some news outlets said last week that Hamas didn't actually do anything, it was all a lie. Now Hamas has claimed responsibility.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/ ... ility.html

I knew deep down that Hamas was responsible. I knew the media was spewing anti-Israel propaganda. They aren't terrorists, they're victims of terrorism. Israel is fighting for their right to exist. Palestine does not need it's own country anymore than Texas or Scotland. It's ridiculous.

I say "Go Israel". I know they're in the right. Sure, civilians get killed. How many civilians did we kill with two nukes in 1945? To me, no American has any right to denounce Israel.

[Shikanosuke]

I firmly side with Israel.

Well, we're sort of on the same side on this one....just not really the characterization.

They're being victimized by Middle Eastern Muslims, who want to annihilate all Jews.

This is partly true, in its vague way. They are victims of rocket attacks and other terrorist activities. Those are carried out by Muslim extremists. But lets be careful lest we label all Middle Eastern Muslims as extremists who want to annihilate all Jews. Lets also note that a small minority of Jews have little to no regard for Palestinian life, and would care less to see them all annihilated. Extremists are represented on both sides of the conflict.

I think it's hilarious that when some news outlets said last week that Hamas didn't actually do anything, it was all a lie. Now Hamas has claimed responsibility.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/ ... ility.html

I knew deep down that Hamas was responsible. I knew the media was spewing anti-Israel propaganda. They aren't terrorists, they're victims of terrorism.

Mostly agreed here, though lets be truthful in saying our media does not hate Israel very much despite recent 'tensions' between our two countries.

Israel is fighting for their right to exist.

Not really. At one time I'd have agreed with you. Israel was once besieged on all sides with enemies. And strategically they're still precariously placed between certain countries. But with the exception of rockets and other acts of terror conducted by Hamas Israel is not in danger of being overrun by Hamas. Even Hezbollah isn't a insurmountable threat to Israel. Israel is fighting for security for sure, but not its very existence (if thats what you were implying).

Palestine does not need it's own country anymore than Texas or Scotland. It's ridiculous.

Here we'll just disagree and I'll let the pro-Palestine folks and you discuss it.