Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:12 pm

Jordan wrote:To what extent is this about self-determination and to what extent should self-determination guide future foreign policy?

Is self-determination a viable solution when there are a hodgepodge of different cultural groups clustered in one area, often with divergent national interests? Should humanity look toward transcending nationalism in order to create more viable multinational entities without nationalist conflict among different groups? Does nationalism have nothing to do with Crimea whatsoever, aside from being a pretext?


I think humanity should be looking to transcend nationalism, or at least the toxic side, but I don't think it means that Scotland, Crimea, Basque, Wales shouldn't be allowed to determine their own fate. As long as the referendum is free and fair, not done every five minutes till they get what they want (aka don't copy EU tactics) and the new state is remotely viable.

I agree with WWD on the last question.

Sun Fin wrote:Do you think Russia will care about being blocked out of the G8?


No
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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby Jordan » Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:13 pm

I don't think it means that Scotland, Crimea, Basque, Wales shouldn't be allowed to determine their own fate


Where does it end though? If people keep associating themselves with their geographic locale or adopting other cultural identities, is it even possible to give each individual "nation/culture group" its own state? Yet on the other hand, it's also true that an oppressive dominant majority group cannot always cater to the needs of all the minority cultures. Self-determination is one ideal. I also think it's somewhat of a fantasy.

I agree that nationalism is important in the Crimea crisis and the last question I asked was actually rhetorical. I posted earlier in this thread that I felt this was an issue of irredentism.

I think kicking Russia out of the G8 is stupid and defeats the purpose of having international forums.
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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby Boydie » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:09 pm

That's the Bear lining up his forces at the border of Ukraine for round two.

Watch the World do nothing in response.
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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:17 pm

Jordan wrote:
I don't think it means that Scotland, Crimea, Basque, Wales shouldn't be allowed to determine their own fate


Where does it end though? If people keep associating themselves with their geographic locale or adopting other cultural identities, is it even possible to give each individual "nation/culture group" its own state? Yet on the other hand, it's also true that an oppressive dominant majority group cannot always cater to the needs of all the minority cultures. Self-determination is one ideal. I also think it's somewhat of a fantasy.


One can be a cultural/geographic group without demanding nationhood, I don't imagine Cornwall for example is going to become a nation state any time soon. Nor would I suggest every grouping in the world should become a nation state or that it is remotely desirable. It could end with a major redrawing with the map in certain area's of the world but it ends when it ends, either calling a halt becuase we start getting unviable states or there are no longer enough majorities for independence for any more estates. Or when balance tips too far the other way

I just think there should be routes for peoples to be able to gain a referendum to settle the question
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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby Jordan » Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:36 pm

Who would be the judge and how would the referendum process be handled? I more or less agree with you and in my earlier proposal stated that the people of Crimea should be allowed to vote. However I disagree with them voting under Russian military dominance, even though I think the vote was still valid given the majority Russian population in the Crimea.

Tymoshenko claims that the clip of her speaking in Russia was manipulated and contains many things that she did not say.
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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:11 am

Jordan wrote:Who would be the judge and how would the referendum process be handled?


Of fairness? International observers was generally used for that I thought?

There have been plenty of referendums that could be used for general guidelines or rules of how to run an internationally accepted referendum but quite frankly, I don't think we will ever get everyone to agree to a set of rules, just in a case it comes back against them.
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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:11 pm

As far as I can tell Farage didn't say anything much different to our conclusions yet his getting ripped to pieces in the British media:

BBC News - Farage: EU does have 'blood on its hands' over Ukraine
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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:23 am

I know "blood on the hands" is emotive and in hindsight he might have used a different phrase to avoid this but what surprises me is plenty of the media agree that the EU messed up and even they are going "Bloody Hell Farage! That is not on!". They say it=fine, Farage says it and world is coming to end?
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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:01 am

Dong Zhou wrote:I know "blood on the hands" is emotive and in hindsight he might have used a different phrase to avoid this but what surprises me is plenty of the media agree that the EU messed up and even they are going "Bloody Hell Farage! That is not on!". They say it=fine, Farage says it and world is coming to end?


The media painting Farage as an evil man regardless of whether what he said was actually accurate on this occasion or not? Shocking. Actually its the exact opposite of that, we should have learnt by now that the British media have no integrity what so ever.
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Re: Obama vs. Putin - Ukraine a Modern Day Guan Du?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:31 pm

It isn't just the media, Clegg and Andrew Lansley have both fainted in shock. I can't help but wonder if some of their fellow MP's are a bit offended by this given some of them weren't happy with the EU's role either.
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