The Chronicle of the Three Kingdoms

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Re: The Chronicle of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Shen Ai » Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:31 pm

Wow, that is some incredible stuff. Well done!
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Re: The Chronicle of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Jordan » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:03 am

Check the similar thread entitled "Chronicles of the Three Kingdoms (Organized)." It's a lot more up-to-date.
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Re: The Chronicle of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:01 pm

Jordon, Was using your thread to get more information about Du Yu and realized I never thanked you. We have little translated on the after Wu Zhang period so having something that covers the Cao Shuang era, the regicide and others so something so detailed really is useful and fascinating. I hope someday we have something like your work that covers the gap between fall of Shu and the fall of Wu
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Re: The Chronicle of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Jordan » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:57 pm

Well I can't really take any credit for it. All of it is the late Achilles Fang's work.

I haven't been able to find much information on Wu's later years. I know a little bit, but overall the information is kinda sparse.

Victor Cunrui Xiong has an entry on Du Yu in his A to Z of Medieval China which reads as follows:

Du Yu (222-early 285) (zi Yuankai] Origin: Duling (southeast of Xi'an, Shaanxi). Western Jin official; foremost Zuozhuan scholar; author of Chunqiu Zuoshi jingzhuan jijie (Assorted explications on the Zuo commentary to the Spring and Autumn Annals). In 278, he took over command of Jingzhou after Yang Hu's death. His seizure of Jiangling in AD 280 was crucial for the conquest of Wu.
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Re: The Chronicle of the Three Kingdoms Discussion

Unread postby Jordan » Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:25 pm

Requesting to have this topic changed to: "Chronicles of the Three Kingdoms Discussion," and for the thread to be unpinned.

It's been years since this has received any attention. However, I realize that there are many ideas I had originally for updating this that went by the wayside in that time. I would like eventually for the following edits to be made.

1.) Finding English equivalents for some of the Chinese/Pinyin ranks and terms used in the text (with the terms in parenthesis in Chinese/Pinyin).

2.) Edits to spelling and grammar, as I'm certain mistakes were made.

3.) Change any Wade-Giles still in the text to Pinyin.

More controversially, I wonder if it would be worthwhile to add in additional notes at the end of this section with further resources in English, member biographies and things like that. They could be separated from the main text with a bar:

===================================================================

like that

and could also possibly be placed in spoilers to distinguish them from the actual text itself.

4.) Stylistic changes? italicizing, bolding, underlining certain things to make for an easier read, or distinguishing notes in the text from the main text in some other way.

5.) Hyperlinks to the original Chinese texts/sources mentioned in the translation. This might be tough.

6.) Chinese names (as in the actual hanzi) for each individual in parenthesis when they appear.

Any thoughts?
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Re: The Chronicle of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:01 pm

I'd love us to do some work on finding English equivalent ranks.
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Re: The Chronicle of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Jordan » Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:07 pm

Dr. Rafe de Crespigny has translations on a few of them in his Biographical Dictionary, but many are hard to find. Out of curiosity in case somebody knows, are xiaowei and jiaoyu similar titles?
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Re: The Chronicle of the Three Kingdoms Discussion

Unread postby Kongde » Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:26 pm

I will lend out whatever help I can, since I'm very familiar with changing Wade-Giles to Pinyin, I am able to help out in that area as well.

1) I will be of no assistance there, sorry!

2) I would be willing and able to assist here.

3) I definitely can assist in this field.

As far as the idea of adding more resources - if you mean at the very end of the post where the Notes used to be, this may not be a bad idea depending how it is executed. I quite like the thought of having related resources within the posts.

4) I am fully on board with that - when I made changes to the notes, I made them all under notepad documents and did not expect to have them put on the thread officially, that idea only dawned on me after I had it completed. I am quite fond of the way Taishi Ci has set up his ZZTJ - I think the notes should be in spoilers and colored. If you want to take it a step further - I would italicize Chinese words not translated into English. That, and it would keep the fluency of the works Taishi has translated of the ZZTJ.

An alternative would be to just color or italicize or both the notes. I will provide in the next post a little sample of each type.

5) I have a website just for this exact thing! Refer to here - http://www.guoxue.com/shibu/zztj/zztjml.htm Three Kingdoms is Books 69 - 79 (but it ends at the first year of Book 79). Here is the start of Book 69 - http://www.guoxue.com/shibu/zztj/content/zztj_069.htm

6) This would be a good idea as well!
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Re: The Chronicle of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Kongde » Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:39 pm

Option 1: Notes with red text & Italics

Second Year of Jingchu (238 AD)
Shu: First Year of Yanxi
Wu: First Year of Chiwu


7. The Sovereign of Han named Lady Zhang as Empress. She was the younger sister of the late Empress. [1] He established Liu Xuan, his son by the guiren {consort?} Wang, as his Crown Prince and Liu Yao as the Prince of Anding. [2]

From SGZ, Biography of the Second Sovereign, under the First year of Yanxi.

[1] SGZ has, “In the first month, spring, he named Lady Zhang Empress.” The Shu first month is identical with the Wei second month.

Sima Guang's second statement is from SGZ, Biography of the Empress named Zhang, where we read: “The Empress named Zhang, consort of the second Sovereign, was the younger sister of the late Empress Jingai. In the fifteenth year of Jianxing (237 AD), she entered the palace and became a guiren. In the spring of the first year of Yanxi, first month, the Emperor appointed her in the following words: 'Having succeeded to the great lineage, I rule over the Empire and continue the sacrifices at the Suburbs, Ancestral Temple, and the Temple of Earth. Herewith I appoint the guiren to be Empress: the acting chengxian (Prime Minister), zuo jiangjun Xiang Chong, is empowered to confer the seal upon her. May she cultivate her wifely virtue and be respectful in the offering of sacrifices. May the Empress be reverent.' In the first year of Xianxi (264 AD), she accompanied the Second Sovereign to Luoyang.”

[2] SGZ, Biography of the Crown Prince Liu Xuan reads: “Liu Xuan, Crown Prince to the Second Sovereign, zi Wenheng. His mother, the guiren Wang, was originally a chamber-maid of the Empress Jingai, named Zhang. In the first month of the first year of Yanxi, the Emperor appointed him to the throne; whether ancient or modern, this is invariable. Herewith Xuan is appointed Crown Prince, to make illustrious the grand command of my ancestors. The acting chengxiang zuo jiangjun Xiang Chong is empowered to confer the seal on him. May he cultivate his character and revere truth, study the institutions of the land and respect his tutors, associate with all men of good character and therewith accomplish his own virtue. May he exert himself and be not remiss.' At this time, he was fifteen years old.” Thus he was born in 224 AD.


Option 2: Source in red, notes in spoiler, no colored text.

Second Year of Jingchu (238 AD)
Shu: First Year of Yanxi
Wu: First Year of Chiwu


7. The Sovereign of Han named Lady Zhang as Empress. She was the younger sister of the late Empress. [1] He established Liu Xuan, his son by the guiren {consort?} Wang, as his Crown Prince and Liu Yao as the Prince of Anding. [2]

From SGZ, Biography of the Second Sovereign, under the First year of Yanxi.

[1] SGZ has, “In the first month, spring, he named Lady Zhang Empress.” The Shu first month is identical with the Wei second month.

Sima Guang's second statement is from SGZ, Biography of the Empress named Zhang, where we read: “The Empress named Zhang, consort of the second Sovereign, was the younger sister of the late Empress Jingai. In the fifteenth year of Jianxing (237 AD), she entered the palace and became a guiren. In the spring of the first year of Yanxi, first month, the Emperor appointed her in the following words: 'Having succeeded to the great lineage, I rule over the Empire and continue the sacrifices at the Suburbs, Ancestral Temple, and the Temple of Earth. Herewith I appoint the guiren to be Empress: the acting chengxian (Prime Minister), zuo jiangjun Xiang Chong, is empowered to confer the seal upon her. May she cultivate her wifely virtue and be respectful in the offering of sacrifices. May the Empress be reverent.' In the first year of Xianxi (264 AD), she accompanied the Second Sovereign to Luoyang.”

[2] SGZ, Biography of the Crown Prince Liu Xuan reads: “Liu Xuan, Crown Prince to the Second Sovereign, zi Wenheng. His mother, the guiren Wang, was originally a chamber-maid of the Empress Jingai, named Zhang. In the first month of the first year of Yanxi, the Emperor appointed him to the throne; whether ancient or modern, this is invariable. Herewith Xuan is appointed Crown Prince, to make illustrious the grand command of my ancestors. The acting chengxiang zuo jiangjun Xiang Chong is empowered to confer the seal on him. May he cultivate his character and revere truth, study the institutions of the land and respect his tutors, associate with all men of good character and therewith accomplish his own virtue. May he exert himself and be not remiss.' At this time, he was fifteen years old.” Thus he was born in 224 AD.[/color]


Option 3: Colored text with Spoiler

Second Year of Jingchu (238 AD)
Shu: First Year of Yanxi
Wu: First Year of Chiwu


7. The Sovereign of Han named Lady Zhang as Empress. She was the younger sister of the late Empress. [1] He established Liu Xuan, his son by the guiren {consort?} Wang, as his Crown Prince and Liu Yao as the Prince of Anding. [2]

[7] From SGZ, Biography of the Second Sovereign, under the First year of Yanxi.

[7.1] SGZ has: “In the first month, spring, he named Lady Zhang Empress.” The Shu first month is identical with the Wei second month.

Sima Guang's second statement iss from SGZ, Biography of the Empress named Zhang, where we read: “The Empress named Zhang, consort of the second Sovereign, was the younger sister of the late Empress Jingai. In the fifteenth year of Jianxing (237 AD), she entered the palace and became a guiren. In the spring of the first year of Yanxi, first month, the Emperor appointed her in the following words: 'Having succeeded to the great lineage, I rule over the Empire and continue the sacrifices at the Suburbs, Ancestral Temple, and the Temple of Earth. Herewith I appoint the guiren to be Empress: the acting chengxian (Prime Minister), zuo jiangjun Xiang Chong, is empowered to confer the seal upon her. May she cultivate her wifely virtue and be respectful in the offering of sacrifices. May the Empress be reverent.' IN the first year of Xianxi (264 AD), she accompanied the Second Sovereign to Luoyang.”

[7.2] SGZ, Biography of the Crown Prince Liu Xuan reads: “Liu Xuan, Crown Prince to the Second Sovereign, zi Wenheng. His mother, the guiren Wang, was originally a chamber-maid of the Empress Jingai, named Zhang. In the first month of the first year of Yanxi, the Emperor appointed him to the throne; whether ancient or modern, this is invariable. Herewith Xuan is appointed Crown Prince, to make illustrious the grand command of my ancestors. The acting chengxiang zuo jiangjun Xiang Chong is empowered to confer the seal on him. May he cultivate his character and revere truth, study the institutions of the land and respect his tutors, associate with all men of good character and therewith accomplish his own virtue. May he exert himself and be not remiss.' At this time, he was fifteen years old.” Thus he was born in 224 AD.



Definitely do not limit yourself to these options alone and especially the usage of bolds/underlines, I am simply providing potential options and visuals (because sometimes visuals can help a lot!)
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Re: The Chronicle of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Jordan » Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:45 pm

Thanks. This could be an interesting long-term improvement.

I started editing the first post a bit, but I realize this is going to be a big project. Took me hours just to do a lot of simple things (like getting hanzi for names). I think the hanzi for names is occasionally useful. For example, I can distinguish between the Ding bros. who were partisans of Cao Zhi (both of which are "Ding Yi" in English) by their different given names in Chinese characters.

I think Chü Yen is supposed to be Ju Yan in Pinyin, but I'm really uncertain on this one, especially since I can't find any information on this person anywhere.

A lot of ranks are really hard to find information on. Sometimes I see translations for parts of the ranks, but not the entire thing, and then I'm uncertain if the untranslatable sections change the meaning of the entire rank. For example, zhonglang jiang is translated by De Crespigny as General of the Household or General of the Gentleman of the Household or Leader of the Gentleman of the Household. However, some ranks have [insert additional chinese words]+zhonglang jiang, and I dunno if that changes the meaning of the whole thing.

In a few places, I saw ranks which were very similar to others, but used jiaoyu instead of xiaowei (colonel), which is why I wonder if xiaowei and jiaoyu might be nearly interchangeable. But I am very uncertain on this point.

I am more certain about basic and commonly used ranks like chengxiang (which can be Chancellor, Prime Minister or Premier in English, depending on preference), cishi (Inspector), jiangjun (General) and taishou. Taishou is interesting though because Achilles Fang seems to prefer to translate it as "Prefect," while Dr. Rafe de Crespigny seems to translate it as Grand Administrator or Administrator. I feel like De Crespigny's version is more commonly respected these days, though I'm not sure there's really a big difference in English between the two titles. This might just be an issue of translation preference.

I found some other useful resources while I was editing.

http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Te ... ml#nianhao

has various titles and translations for rulers, which can be helpful sometimes.

https://www.yourchineseastrology.com/ca ... anches.htm

has the hanzi for the heavenly and earthly stems, used occasionally in the text to refer to dates (example: dingmao). It's probably kinda a trivial detail, but I sort of like including these.

Dr. Rafe de Crespigny's Biographical Dictionary has some other useful details, such as the hanzi for province or place names. I also spotted an error I made while trying to convert Wade-Giles to Pinyin in the first post. It says some stuff about selecting officials from only Jiao and Pei. That's supposed to be "Qiao" and Pei.

Those formatting suggestions you made are pretty good. I'll think about it a bit.
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