patrickrafferty9 wrote:I think Lu Bu is the most misunderstood character in the whole of the three kingdoms, he saved the Han for another 10-20 years at least by killing Dong Zhuo which must have been hard for him to do. Not only did Dong Zhuo have so much power with being chancellor but also had the Emperor in his back pocket. He did this all for the girl he loves, how can someone be classed as a villain when he felt such emotions? and remember after he killed Dong Zhuo, he was appointed pretty much the right hand of the Emperor himself. You could say that he had his life sorted until Li Jue, Guo Si and Fan Chou raided Chang An and killed Wang Yun. He only cared about Diao Chan and spending the rest of his life with her in my eyes he is a true hero not just because of his military might but because he sacrificed an exotic lifestyle with Dong Zhuo for Diao Chan which deserves merit
Love doesn't define good and evil. A person can be a great villain and yet truly love someone and vice versa, a good person may never know love's sweet embrace. Some view Cao Cao as one of the more evil figures of the period yet his relationship with Ding was romantically tragic, the man of great pride was willing to let her go, while there is a sweetness to his relationship with the singer Bian. Sun Hao, the poster boy for power corrupts the good-est of men, mourned the death of one of his ladies to such a great extent. So and so on.
Now had Lu Bu settled down into some sort of retirement or searched for a lord to serve, after the fall of Chang An, so he could be with Diao Chan, it would be truly an epic romantic moment and I would agree with sections of your argument. He didn't. He went around seeking power for himself, backstabbing a few warlords and waging war. Also, he gained heavily from Dong's death, he became the chief miliatry figure at the capital and got rewarded. He may have taken a gamble by plotting against his master but he hardly did it for nothing more then Chan's love, he sacrificed nothing and had Wang Yun not mishandled things, would have gained a lot.
Not sure Lu Bu really saved the Han for a time. Granted, the plan might have done if not for Wang Yun's errors in dealing with Li Jue and co, but as it stood, it arguably left the Han fatally weaker.
Can't say he's a bad person, just too easily manipulated.
Murdered his first adopted father (novel)/overlord (history) for a horse (novel)/power (history). Took part in a regicidal regime and fought for it until he was persuaded to murder that lord. Quite a lot of people have called that villainous
Shen Ai wrote:Well his motive wasn't to save the Han, it was to gain love. While it's not an evil thing, it's not really viewed as well as Liu Bei, who probably sacrificed his loves and family in the novel to save the Han. He was a bit of an idiot at times, given by his rudeness to Yuan Shu and how he just took Liu Bei's land. I feel bad for him due to his manner of death. In history he never begged for his life but died willing to surrender himself to the enemy to save his men. He's not a hero who has a good ending, but he's a guy who had the qualities of a tragic hero.
I think Lu Bu is seen as a villain becuase of his reputation for backstabbing, particularly the murder of two adopted-fathers and the serving of Mr Cuddles. It is a huge black mark. I think the novel gives him a bit of a kicking, makes the murder of Ding Yuan worse, the death cowardice and so on, also makes him more of an idiot. Your also right in that he is used as a puppet by various factions during his life. Yet there is a likability about him, he shows kindness at surprising times and of course there is the big (on Diao Chan's half, ambiguous) romance.
I fully agree with the last line. Whatever his historical dirty deeds, it is hard not to like him and his end, the sense of exhaustion and tiredness from a once great warrior, his vassals falling out amongst themselves and his willingness to give up his own head for others. He isn't a tragic hero as such but he has the makings of one
Sven wrote:I personally view it better. I know the Chinese had a different set of values, but as a westerner I see Lu Bu as a better person than Liu Bei. Liu Bei didn't just value the Han higher than his family, he treated his family like garbage. Hated the guy as a person for this.
Yeah, Liu Bei's treatment of family, Cao Cao leaving son and nephew behind and others doesn't sit so well with us in the west. Or I guess during times of peace. Not sure blatant murder is considered any better in our values though.
patrickrafferty9 wrote:But in a sense Lu Bu did save the Han for a while in my eyes it was Cao Pi who ruined the Han all together
The Han was dead way before Cao Pi stepped in and delivered the final blow. It was pretty much dead before Cao Cao took control of it. Heck it had been in near terminal decline for decades before Dong's attempt at reform blew up spectacularly.
It is hard to tell what Cao Cao's ultimate motivation was with the Han but he certainly left it so the Han, nor anybody else, was a threat to the Cao family. Maybe he wanted to unite the land first, maybe there was some Han loyalty left in him, maybe he wished to emulate the King of Zhou and so on. Maybe he had an eye on posterity.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”