In your mind, what do you wish to call Lu Bu?

[Hyper90]

liu bei is a terrible family guy, but a very charismatic CEO

Lu Bu could be a good servant or ally if he didnt betray and backstab people around.

[patrickrafferty9]

But in a sense Lu Bu did save the Han for a while in my eyes it was Cao Pi who ruined the Han all together, I am a shuist to be honest i think Liu Bei was the ideal ruler for China his benelovance and virtue was why all the people loved him if it wasn't for Guan Yu's death Liu Bei would have only gotten stronger but in the end his anger and retaliation to Wu was his downfall.
Your right he is a tragic hero i also think he was too simple-minded and didn't listen to Chen Gong as much as he should have but i don't think he deserved to be executed Lu Bu was just easily enticed and needed direction in life someone as ambitious as Cao Cao would have really got the best out of him and anyone who says he wasn't loyal is forgetting that he served under the tyrant Dong Zhuo for many years proving he is a capable officer and unmatched on the battlefield i regard him without an equal and he deserves a lot more credit then he actually gets

[Shen Ai]

Well speaking in novel terms, Cao Pi didn't care one bit for the Han. He wanted it gone. He would never do anything to restore it, given how his father purged most loyalists and how Cao Pi rid himself of all threats to his position. He's meant to be a villain if anything, in novel terms.

Lu Bu in the novel seems like a villain, and I think that's what the writer wanted. Lu Bu was manipulated by Wang Yun and Diao Chan. Lu Bu was just a puppet. He was used, he killed a man to get what he wanted and then he got his butt kicked out of town. Not really heroic.

Historically, it's much easier to view him as a hero.

[patrickrafferty9]

Cao Pi went against all his fathers and Wei's believes by abdicating the emperor and taking the throne for himself, Cao Cao always said that he never wanted the throne for himself.

I think he wasn't just a puppet because Diaochan really did fall in love with him and i think Wang Yun saw a completely different side to him then what he is portrayed i think if he wasn't forced out the capital the Han would have stood strong

[Shen Ai]

But in the end, he was forced from the capital. He was a puppet at the end of the day, even if he didn't think he was. He got some freedom, then he became Chen Gong's little puppet after serving lords like Yuan Shao, Yuan Shu and Liu Bei.

Cao Cao never took the throne but if he wanted to keep the Han standing he would have ordered his ministers or his son not to usurp the throne. He knew that whoever came after him would destroy the Han dynasty, which was made up of one man and some concubines by then. Destroying the Han was no big deal. In fact, Cao Pi did wonder into turning Wei into a state that was government controlled rather than warlord controlled like Wu and Shu. Destroying the Han was a long time coming and it was not a bad thing, nor did it go against what Cao Cao wanted or said.

[patrickrafferty9]

Thats a fair point but we really don't know maybe he did tell Cao Pi not to usurp the throne but he did it anyway no one knows which is a shame i'd love to know the full story of the three kingdoms.

[Shen Ai]

I think everyone would want to know every single detail, my self included. We just have to go with the facts that we have. I think Cao Cao would know what type of person his son was and he would have issued an edict to prevent the usurping. It was not just Cao Pi who wanted the Han gone, there were dozens of ministers as well.

[Dong Zhou]

I think Lu Bu is the most misunderstood character in the whole of the three kingdoms, he saved the Han for another 10-20 years at least by killing Dong Zhuo which must have been hard for him to do. Not only did Dong Zhuo have so much power with being chancellor but also had the Emperor in his back pocket. He did this all for the girl he loves, how can someone be classed as a villain when he felt such emotions? and remember after he killed Dong Zhuo, he was appointed pretty much the right hand of the Emperor himself. You could say that he had his life sorted until Li Jue, Guo Si and Fan Chou raided Chang An and killed Wang Yun. He only cared about Diao Chan and spending the rest of his life with her in my eyes he is a true hero not just because of his military might but because he sacrificed an exotic lifestyle with Dong Zhuo for Diao Chan which deserves merit

Love doesn't define good and evil. A person can be a great villain and yet truly love someone and vice versa, a good person may never know love's sweet embrace. Some view Cao Cao as one of the more evil figures of the period yet his relationship with Ding was romantically tragic, the man of great pride was willing to let her go, while there is a sweetness to his relationship with the singer Bian. Sun Hao, the poster boy for power corrupts the good-est of men, mourned the death of one of his ladies to such a great extent. So and so on.

Now had Lu Bu settled down into some sort of retirement or searched for a lord to serve, after the fall of Chang An, so he could be with Diao Chan, it would be truly an epic romantic moment and I would agree with sections of your argument. He didn't. He went around seeking power for himself, backstabbing a few warlords and waging war. Also, he gained heavily from Dong's death, he became the chief miliatry figure at the capital and got rewarded. He may have taken a gamble by plotting against his master but he hardly did it for nothing more then Chan's love, he sacrificed nothing and had Wang Yun not mishandled things, would have gained a lot.

Not sure Lu Bu really saved the Han for a time. Granted, the plan might have done if not for Wang Yun's errors in dealing with Li Jue and co, but as it stood, it arguably left the Han fatally weaker.

Hero.

Can't say he's a bad person, just too easily manipulated.

Murdered his first adopted father (novel)/overlord (history) for a horse (novel)/power (history). Took part in a regicidal regime and fought for it until he was persuaded to murder that lord. Quite a lot of people have called that villainous

Well his motive wasn't to save the Han, it was to gain love. While it's not an evil thing, it's not really viewed as well as Liu Bei, who probably sacrificed his loves and family in the novel to save the Han. He was a bit of an idiot at times, given by his rudeness to Yuan Shu and how he just took Liu Bei's land. I feel bad for him due to his manner of death. In history he never begged for his life but died willing to surrender himself to the enemy to save his men. He's not a hero who has a good ending, but he's a guy who had the qualities of a tragic hero.

I think Lu Bu is seen as a villain becuase of his reputation for backstabbing, particularly the murder of two adopted-fathers and the serving of Mr Cuddles. It is a huge black mark. I think the novel gives him a bit of a kicking, makes the murder of Ding Yuan worse, the death cowardice and so on, also makes him more of an idiot. Your also right in that he is used as a puppet by various factions during his life. Yet there is a likability about him, he shows kindness at surprising times and of course there is the big (on Diao Chan's half, ambiguous) romance.

I fully agree with the last line. Whatever his historical dirty deeds, it is hard not to like him and his end, the sense of exhaustion and tiredness from a once great warrior, his vassals falling out amongst themselves and his willingness to give up his own head for others. He isn't a tragic hero as such but he has the makings of one

I personally view it better. I know the Chinese had a different set of values, but as a westerner I see Lu Bu as a better person than Liu Bei. Liu Bei didn't just value the Han higher than his family, he treated his family like garbage. Hated the guy as a person for this.

Yeah, Liu Bei's treatment of family, Cao Cao leaving son and nephew behind and others doesn't sit so well with us in the west. Or I guess during times of peace. Not sure blatant murder is considered any better in our values though.

But in a sense Lu Bu did save the Han for a while in my eyes it was Cao Pi who ruined the Han all together

The Han was dead way before Cao Pi stepped in and delivered the final blow. It was pretty much dead before Cao Cao took control of it. Heck it had been in near terminal decline for decades before Dong's attempt at reform blew up spectacularly.

It is hard to tell what Cao Cao's ultimate motivation was with the Han but he certainly left it so the Han, nor anybody else, was a threat to the Cao family. Maybe he wanted to unite the land first, maybe there was some Han loyalty left in him, maybe he wished to emulate the King of Zhou and so on. Maybe he had an eye on posterity.

[MhiHayoli]

Lu Bu is no real villian. He was used by people because of his strength and talent in Battle. I wouldn't call him a hero, too. He killed two of his "stephfathers" and that out of greed... .

But if you look back on Romance of the Three Kingdoms - he attacked Liu Bei at Xiao Pei (or was it Xia Pi?) because Zhang Fei stole the horses. If Zhang Fei wouldn't have done that, Lu Bu might have become one of Liu Bei's strongest allies or obstacles.


Umi Mari: "If he wouldn't have chosen that petal-girl Diao Chan instead of a full fledged warrior like me - he might have been the emperor himself >_>

Me: You showed that this is true in DW6

[Elitemsh]

Zhang Fei stole the horses after Lu Bu had already taken Xia Pi and taken in Liu Bei. Yes in novel Fei is probably at least partly to blame for Lu Bu's second attack on Liu Bei. To be honest I don't blame Lu Bu for attacking Liu Bei either time. From a historical perspective, Zhang Fei was causing problems in the city anyway. Perhaps the city was better off with Bu in charge. Also Liu Bei i'm sure would have done the same thing (well he did to Liu Zhang). Lu Bu's second attack was out of suspicion. It appeared to him that Liu Bei was planning on retaking Xia Pi which was fair enough.

Lu Bu and Liu Bei could never have been allies for long just like all the major leaders. These guys were just too ambitious.

Personally I like the real Lu Bu. He was among the strongest and bravest on the battlefield and I like the way he challenged Cao Cao and almost destroyed him. Lu Bu may have also unintentionally saved a lot of lifes. When Bu attacked Cao Cao's home, Cao was busy performing one of his many heroic feats (i.e slaughtering commoners in the name of his father). Cao Cao had to cut the massacre short because of Lu Bu, although Cao did make sure to kill as many as possible while he exited. Lu Bu was no saint but, like Liu Bei, his misdeeds were nothing compared to Cao. Lu Bu plundered but that's how poorer armies made their way, but he never killed commoners. He was not that cruel a man. We don't know much about Ding Yuan but Dong Zhuo was indeed a villain and deserved his fate. I guess I just like Lu Bu because I detest Cao Cao, though I respect him.