Shu and Jiang wei

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Would Shu of been better off with or without Jiang Wei

Better with Jiang Wei
7
41%
Better without Jiang Wei
10
59%
 
Total votes : 17

Re: Shu and Jiang wei

Unread postby the hidden dragon » Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:51 am

i do not understand why most ppl belittles jiang wei. And i should say, we might have over-rated Zhuge Liang in the first place thats why the comparison while zhuge was still around or after he died.

What did zhuge really achieved during his lifetime as shu people? despite the few northern expeditions? Many din mentioned he also exhausted the resources of Shu during his few expeditions which were not successful (though novel or history said it was due to some bad decision by the emperor or whatever reasons). who knows in reality? or was it the fact that they (zhuge's shu army)really couldnt match the might of Wei's?

Jiang Wei took over an exhausted shu army. And if he was really an loser or incompetent person, u think he even bothered to waste so much time and effort to launch attacks after attacks over Wei? he could have defected and went over to other sides or jus sit back and live in comfort and listen to those ministers (and maybe wait for Wei to attack). If the might of zhuge couldnt achieve much, and why blame that jiang wei was not good enough?

Even if it was cao cao or Deng Ai incharged of Shu( instead of jiang wei) wth the resources, army size and landscape etc, might not made any positive progress.
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Re: Shu and Jiang wei

Unread postby Qu Hui » Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:50 am

the hidden dragon wrote:What did zhuge really achieved during his lifetime as shu people?

Economic and political stability, security from bandits and overall comfortable lives are what Zhuge gave the people of Shu.

the hidden dragon wrote:Many din mentioned he also exhausted the resources of Shu during his few expeditions which were not successful (though novel or history said it was due to some bad decision by the emperor or whatever reasons).

Actually, Zhuge didn't waste much resources on campaigns, since he spaced them out and made sure they didn't strain the economy too badly. Jiang Wei often launched campaigns in rapid succession, and his campaigns were so wasteful that he had to establish military farms because Shu's farms couldn't support his campaigns.

the hidden dragon wrote:who knows in reality? or was it the fact that they (zhuge's shu army)really couldnt match the might of Wei's?

Actually, Zhuge retreated mostly because of supply issues, but also because he simply lost or in the case of one campaign, there was a falsified retreat order issued.

the hidden dragon wrote:Jiang Wei took over an exhausted shu army.

Well, by the time Jiang Wei began campaigning in 249 the Shu army hadn't seen major combat for five years, so I would hardly call the Shu army 'exhausted.'

the hidden dragon wrote:And if he was really an loser or incompetent person, u think he even bothered to waste so much time and effort to launch attacks after attacks over Wei?

Jiang Wei was glory hungry, it had nothing to do with him being incompetent.

the hidden dragon wrote:he could have defected and went over to other sides or jus sit back and live in comfort

He could have, but again he was glory hungry and living in comfort is no way to obtain glory.

the hidden dragon wrote:and listen to those ministers (and maybe wait for Wei to attack).

Wei did attack, and it was those ministers (and Wang Ping) who repelled Wei.

Xia Kyoto wrote:Shu needed a pool of talent after Wu Zhang, and Jiang Wei was talented to a certain extent. I just think that he should have been limited, trained, and put to good use in the right ways.

Well, Jiang Wei was restrained in how much he could do until Fei Yi died, then he allied with Huang Hao and was given full control of the military.
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Re: Shu and Jiang wei

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:37 am

If the might of zhuge couldnt achieve much, and why blame that jiang wei was not good enough?

Even if it was cao cao or Deng Ai incharged of Shu( instead of jiang wei) wth the resources, army size and landscape etc, might not made any positive progress.


We don't blame Jiang Wei or Zhuge Liang for failing to make much headway on the offensive, Shu was always up against it. However compare how the two managed matters, how Shu prospered under Zhuge Liang whereas Shu's corruption began becuase Jiang Wei allied with Huang Hao and Chen Zhi and you can start to see why Jiang gets it in the neck. Zhuge Liang carefully managed the camapigns, Shu was able to afford them. Jiang Wei's constant stream of attacks was a strain that Shu, particularly a corrupt Shu, couldn't afford in the end.
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Re: Shu and Jiang wei

Unread postby Lu Kang » Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:31 am

Qu Hui wrote:Economic and political stability, security from bandits and overall comfortable lives are what Zhuge gave the people of Shu.

Actually, Zhuge didn't waste much resources on campaigns, since he spaced them out and made sure they didn't strain the economy too badly. Jiang Wei often launched campaigns in rapid succession, and his campaigns were so wasteful that he had to establish military farms because Shu's farms couldn't support his campaigns.


While I agree with your statements on Jiang Wei, I think that you give Zhuge Liang too much credit. His campaigns while perhaps managed better, were equally as crippling to economy of Shu and depleted the state's resources. Granted, it would appear as though his strategies were better and may have accomplished something, so perhaps the trade-off could be justified.
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Re: Shu and Jiang wei

Unread postby the hidden dragon » Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:46 am

Dong Zhou wrote:We don't blame Jiang Wei or Zhuge Liang for failing to make much headway on the offensive, Shu was always up against it. However compare how the two managed matters, how Shu prospered under Zhuge Liang whereas Shu's corruption began becuase Jiang Wei allied with Huang Hao and Chen Zhi and you can start to see why Jiang gets it in the neck. Zhuge Liang carefully managed the camapigns, Shu was able to afford them. Jiang Wei's constant stream of attacks was a strain that Shu, particularly a corrupt Shu, couldn't afford in the end.


well i guess as many have argued zhuge was more of a politican than really a military strategist. and jiang wei, could just be a good military person but purely lack alot of human skills.
I am not sure if many of the original shu people, those during the Liu Zhang's era, and his officers were really happy with liu bei and zhugeliang coming in and taking over their land. i am sure they are not happy with sending their people, sons and husbands to war for some "personal" course. So be it zhuge or jiang wei, the shu people generally did not like the idea. Maybe just that during the early stage of Shu kingdom, when liu bei and zhuge liang was still in power, guess they din dare to certain extend revolt or oppose openly. course they knew zhuge was not a simple person. and when zhuge passed away and jiang wei took over, guess they thought "their" time is fading and over. and discontentments becomes more visible and open.
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Re: Shu and Jiang wei

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:35 am

Jiang Wei was trained as an administrator and his responsibility included political and administrative matters. Leaving it in other's hands is fine as long as things are going well but when corruption is going on, a senior scholar and your generals are complaining about it, that is abdicating responsibility.

I am not sure if many of the original shu people, those during the Liu Zhang's era, and his officers were really happy with liu bei and zhugeliang coming in and taking over their land. i am sure they are not happy with sending their people, sons and husbands to war for some "personal" course. So be it zhuge or jiang wei, the shu people generally did not like the idea.


Perhaps. They still mourned Zhuge Liang's death and built temples to him while they took the rare step of massive riots against Jiang Wei.

and when zhuge passed away and jiang wei took over, guess they thought "their" time is fading and over. and discontentments becomes more visible and open.


Even though Jiang Wei didn't take over from Zhuge Liang for a long time and there weren't massive riots during that time. The only massive rots that occurred where after years of corruption and a constant string of defeats, I suspect that was the main reason for it.
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Re: Shu and Jiang wei

Unread postby the hidden dragon » Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:24 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Jiang Wei was trained as an administrator and his responsibility included political and administrative matters. Leaving it in other's hands is fine as long as things are going well but when corruption is going on, a senior scholar and your generals are complaining about it, that is abdicating responsibility.


u mean jiang wei was involved in corruption? or he knew but just turned a deaf ears to it?

So will matters be different if Sima Yi replaced Jiang Wei and took over Zhugeliang? would by your own assumptionn make any different? (just imaginary)
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Re: Shu and Jiang wei

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:42 am

Well he allied with Huang Hao and Chen Zhi in a deal where they were free to do what they wanted and they wouldn't put difficulties in his camapign plans. So he was involved to a degree, particularly when he turned a blind eye.

I don't understand the second question.
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Re: Shu and Jiang wei

Unread postby Xia Kyoto » Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:23 pm

I think what The Hidden Dragon is trying to say, is that, let's just pretend that Sima Yi succeeded and replaced Zhuge Liang, in place of Jiang Wei, and that he somehow served Shu. Would he heave done anything different? (Concerning the corruption scenario, and maybe the..military scenario?) Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Re: Shu and Jiang wei

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:42 am

I believe Sima Yi was dead (and rather old) by the time Jiang Wei was given his post. The one misgiving I have about people comparing Zhuge Liang and Jiang Wei is that a good 15 years saw governance by Jiang Wan and Fei YI. I get that it stems from the book playing up Jiang Wei as Zhuge Liang's successor, but that was hardly the case.

In a what-if scenario where Sima Yi was still alive and serving Shu, it could be interesting. Off the cuff, I doubt he would launch any major campaigns, much like his two predecessors. Sima Yi wasn't a remarkable military leader and tended to play defensively and cautiously as a rule, given his performance against Zhuge Liang.

However, what would be worth truly considering is how he would handle the corruption in court. Would Huang Hao make maneuvers to strip him of rank like Cao Shuang had done? Would Sima Yi still have revolted like he did with Wei? If this had happened, Liu Shan would've shrugged and asked if he could please just keep his harem. Best case scenario I could foresee would be Shu getting a life extension without Jiang Wei's campaigning to hasten its demise and general chaos everywhere in the other two kingdoms, since Wu would play out the same but last longer and Cao Shuang and his faction would've ended up stepping on somebody's toes and igniting conflict.
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