The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

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The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:19 am

Mod Edit (James): split from The Cordoba House ('Ground-Zero Mosque)

For discussion about Holocaust Denial.

dajiangjun wrote:So how can we ever know if Holocaust deniers are onto anything if we suppress their speech, or if we use your words “oppress it publicly”?


That's not what James said. He said 'oppose... publicly'; he never said 'oppress'. There's a very significant difference between the two.

That said, there's practically no way the Holocaust deniers are onto anything, since the available historical data both from within Nazi Germany and from Allied sources following the close of the war completely contradict them; their baseless opinions are grounded in ideology and conspiracy theory rather than fact. To put it bluntly, the Holocaust deniers have even less chance of being historically correct than do the Stratford deniers, and the extreme anti-Semitic political motivations behind most incidences of Holocaust denialism are enough to warrant the suspicion of the states which had been corrupted by such ideologies and made to actively participate in the atrocity in question.

My opinion on Imus? I think his comment was both racially and sexually insensitive and hostile. 'Nappy-haired' can be a fair description or comparison of someone's hair, but calling pro basketball players (or any women) 'hos' is pretty clearly disrespectful, and that made the entire description a hostile epithet. I certainly don't think his freedom of speech was infringed; freedom of speech entails a certain set of responsibilities, and if it means losing your job because your employers or your listeners don't like what you said, then you should step up and take it like a man (which Imus did, more or less). Dr Laura actually showed a lot less class than Mr Imus did, moaning and bellyaching about how her First Amendment rights had been violated when it was pretty much only private individuals criticising her.
Last edited by WeiWenDi on Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cordoba House "Ground Zero Mosque"

Unread postby dajiangjun » Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:34 am

WeiWenDi wrote:
dajiangjun wrote:So how can we ever know if Holocaust deniers are onto anything if we suppress their speech, or if we use your words “oppress it publicly”?


That's not what James said. He said 'oppose... publicly'; he never said 'oppress'. There's a very significant difference between the two.

That said, there's practically no way the Holocaust deniers are onto anything, since the available historical data both from within Nazi Germany and from Allied sources following the close of the war completely contradict them; their baseless opinions are grounded in ideology and conspiracy theory rather than fact. To put it bluntly, the Holocaust deniers have even less chance of being historically correct than do the Stratford deniers, and the extreme anti-Semitic political motivations behind most incidences of Holocaust denialism are enough to warrant the suspicion of the states which had been corrupted by such ideologies and made to actively participate in the atrocity in question.


Well I meant oppose, my bad.

That said, there is information which contradicts the Holocaust out there from non-biased sources. The most famous instance is the Leuchter report, in which Fred Leuchter, the only qualified man in America certified in building all forms of execution devices, investigated the death camps, including Auschwitz, and came to the conclusion that these buildings were not, and never could have been, used for gas-execution. Prior to his examination of these camps he was never involved in any anti-Semitic groups or activity and believed 100% in the Holocaust as it is popularly told. What would motivate him to place his career and reputation on the line to make such statements? Why would the most qualified engineer in gas-execution devices claim that these camps were not death camps?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtjFsbA2 ... re=related

Go to 4:40 into this video to hear Mr. Leuchter discuss his findings. Now from a purely objective non-emotional standpoint, why should this information be suppressed?
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Re: Cordoba House "Ground Zero Mosque"

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:54 am

dajiangjun wrote:That said, there is information which contradicts the Holocaust out there from non-biased sources.


Um, no. The Leuchter report has been pretty much debunked on the basis of his faulty methodology and highly selective assumptions which are not based in scientific fact, since a.) he was examining the facilities 50 years after the last execution had taken place; b.) lice are actually more resistant to hydrogen cyanide than humans are due to the differences in metabolic rate; and c.) he fails to account for the presence of Zyklon B or its effectiveness as a delousing agent. It has been considered in a fair and public forum (to wit, the trial of Ernest Zündel); weighed, measured and found severely wanting. Indeed, documentary filmmaker Errol Morris made an entire film documenting the irrational beliefs and unscientific groundings of Leuchter's 'work'.
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Re: Cordoba House "Ground Zero Mosque"

Unread postby dajiangjun » Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:12 am

WeiWenDi wrote:
dajiangjun wrote:That said, there is information which contradicts the Holocaust out there from non-biased sources.


Um, no. The Leuchter report has been pretty much debunked on the basis of his faulty methodology and highly selective assumptions which are not based in scientific fact, since a.) he was examining the facilities 50 years after the last execution had taken place; b.) lice are actually more resistant to hydrogen cyanide than humans are due to the differences in metabolic rate; and c.) he fails to account for the presence of Zyklon B or its effectiveness as a delousing agent. It has been considered in an open forum (to wit, the trial of Ernest Zündel); weighed, measured and found severely wanting. Indeed, documentary filmmaker Errol Morris made an entire film documenting the irrational beliefs and unscientific groundings of Leuchter's 'work'.


I've watched the film and they do not debunk him that greatly, it is mainly criticizing his samples. As he said, the samples were mainly corroborative in his mind, it was the construction of the buildings which he found could never support mass execution. As he also stated, there were far easier and more efficient ways of killing 6 million people than through gassing, and the sheer logistics of doing so, and disposing of nearly all of the remains, all while fighting a losing war with the need for war rations, seems not only extremely difficult but also serving no purpose for the Nazis. Besides this, we have the strange fact that the number killed at Auschwitz were inflated and had to be revised over-time, we have the accusations and witnessing of turning people into bars of soap and lampshades, both of which have been debunked, and we also have the famous fact that history is written by the winners and perhaps the winners have a political agenda for making the questioning of the Holocaust illegal.

There is also the fact that there has never been a single document or order signed by Adolf Hitler calling for the systematic execution of European Jewry. Was it burned, as it is alleged? It is possible, but it still stands that no one has ever seen one.

Then there exists the red-cross reports from during the war-

http://www.rense.com/general69/factua.htm

*Note--I do not listen to or associate with Jeff Rense and his ideas, but merely found the excerpts on his site while searching for it*

An even stranger fact is this image I came across while researching the subject-

Image


Really, when the evidence is weighed up, I do not think we have a 100% definitive truth for either side of the argument, but then this is the case when dealing with most history. But to say the event cannot and indeed should not be questioned or investigated, and when one goes so far as to enacting laws to suppress their freedom to do so, I would say that is taking it too far.

As for this issue, it is probably best not to discuss it any further as it is off topic and likely to totally divert the topic.
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Re: Cordoba House "Ground Zero Mosque"

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:59 am

and perhaps the winners have a political agenda for making the questioning of the Holocaust illegal.


Looking at the list of those that ban denying the Holocaust, the main names are countries like Germany, Austria that lost, those that were conquered like Poland and Hungary and "neutral" countries like the Swiss and Spanish. Oh and unsurprisingly, Israel. Of the winners, it seems Russia, USA, UK and most of it's Commonwealth, doesn't ban it though the French do. So most of the winners don't actually ban the questioning so if that is their agenda, they don't seem to have taken it too seriously so if it's an agenda

I don't think Holocaust denying should be banned, best to get it out into the open were it can be challenged
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Re: Cordoba House "Ground Zero Mosque"

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:48 am

dajiangjun wrote:I've watched the film and they do not debunk him that greatly, it is mainly criticizing his samples. As he said, the samples were mainly corroborative in his mind, it was the construction of the buildings which he found could never support mass execution. As he also stated, there were far easier and more efficient ways of killing 6 million people than through gassing, and the sheer logistics of doing so, and disposing of nearly all of the remains, all while fighting a losing war with the need for war rations, seems not only extremely difficult but also serving no purpose for the Nazis.


And yet, we have hard documentation, photo and video evidence that the Nazis had designated camps used specifically for slaughtering people. Whether or not their doing so was rational or logistically sound, denying that they did it requires what amounts to a denial of reality.

dajiangjun wrote:Besides this, we have the strange fact that the number killed at Auschwitz were inflated and had to be revised over-time


Source? And please, no more neo-Nazi conspiracy theory bunkum from you.

dajiangjun wrote:There is also the fact that there has never been a single document or order signed by Adolf Hitler calling for the systematic execution of European Jewry.


That's like saying we don't have a single letter written by William Shakespeare saying, 'Hey, you know all those plays and poems that, uh, have my name on them? Yeah, it was actually me who wrote them and not that punk poseur Edward de Vere.' Sorry, but the Endlösung was an actual widely-attested military policy within Nazi Germany, and there are very few other places such a military policy could have come from; in the end as a military leader, Hitler also bears responsibility for the actions of his subordinates.

dajiangjun wrote:But to say the event cannot and indeed should not be questioned or investigated, and when one goes so far as to enacting laws to suppress their freedom to do so, I would say that is taking it too far.


Whatever the legality of state action against Holocaust deniers, whenever the fool notion that the Holocaust never happened meets the light of day and of actual scholarly scrutiny, it always fails; its supporters always retreat to denying the validity of existing records or even fabricating their own.

dajiangjun wrote:As for this issue, it is probably best not to discuss it any further as it is off topic and likely to totally divert the topic.


Fine with me as long as this hateful crap doesn't get a free pass here or anywhere.
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Re: Cordoba House "Ground Zero Mosque"

Unread postby agga » Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:08 pm

dajiangjun wrote:Really, when the evidence is weighed up, I do not think we have a 100% definitive truth for either side of the argument, but then this is the case when dealing with most history. But to say the event cannot and indeed should not be questioned or investigated, and when one goes so far as to enacting laws to suppress their freedom to do so, I would say that is taking it too far.


i think there is plenty of evidence that jews and others died in the millions in concentration camps during the war. you can start at the fact that before the war the numbers of jews in europe, esp. germany and poland, were hundreds of thousands (into the millions) more than after. next, note that there are millions of witnesses to the arrest and deportation of these same people to camps in germany and poland (and other locations). finally, there is eyewitness testimony on the part of prisoners, soldiers, and bureaucrats, and orders given by german officials, that explicitly describe mass executions at those camps.

the question, then, of whether one type or another of poison gas was used is academic (the fact that a single engineer tried to establish that something was impossible doesn't really amount to very much, except in propaganda terms), and there are people who study these sorts of questions freely in europe, as well as in other parts of the world. what they study are the particulars of the holocaust, but there is no legitimate debate over whether it occurred.

we can maybe bring this back to the topic of this thread, which is about a sort anti-islamism (is there a word for this?). numerous islamic groups and governments take a denialist position; is this because they are led by evidence to believe that the holocaust is a historical fraud? or, is it because they see that the holocaust is used as a (partial) justification for the existence of israel, which they believe is unjust for other reasons? i think that islamic support for holocaust denial is rooted in political, not historical, motivations. the same is true of western denialists; they start with particular political positions and then distort history to accommodate those positions.

so, i have a question; is the current brand of american anti-islamism traceable to islamic anti-israel/judaism in significant part? i.e. americans in general are comfortable with giving israel ultimate political support in international affairs, and see israel as friend and ally; how much does islamic opposition to israel color our view of islam (as opposed to other, older, "clash of civilizations" perceptions that also contribute)?
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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby Crazedmongoose » Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:55 pm

Okay okay, I personally obviously believe that the holocaust happened, no mistake. WWD has been fairly detailed and articulate, I just thought I'd add two things of interest from my point of view:


1) Conspiracies generally cannot be covered up. If we look at a history of conspiracy theories, from things like Watergate to MKULTRA to the German instigation of WW1 to the Iran-Contra scandal, even small and supposedly well run conspiracies get blown wide open because, honestly speaking, people are fairly critical and investigative. The sheer logistics of covering up a conspiracy is actually pretty unbelievable. Now when you're talking about the holocaust which has tens of if not hundreds of thousands of witnesses-both by standing and those complicit, survivors etc. it's even more unlikely that a conspiracy exists. Because to coordinate such an effort with all those people from scores of countries, including two diametrically opposed ones (US and USSR) across a period of six decades + is difficult in the sense that nothing in history of that magnitude has ever been carried out. I guess though, if you believe in other conspiracies like 9/11 being an inside job you won't agree with this.

2) I'm a film buff as many of you know. This goes beyond just movies made for entertainment or art. I have a small additional degree of insight to actual footage. I have seen around forty minutes of full camp liberation videos in history class back in high school (and couldn't sleep for two nights afterwards). I can't remember the film maker who shot them, but I remember him saying very clearly, and I can attest to this, that he shot it in a way that it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for people later who were versed in film to call fake. By this he meant impossibly long zoom in/zoom out shots, long tracking shots etc. and other things which couldn't have been carried out on a set at the time.
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Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:10 pm

Crazedmongoose wrote:
1) Conspiracies generally cannot be covered up. If we look at a history of conspiracy theories, from things like Watergate to MKULTRA to the German instigation of WW1 to the Iran-Contra scandal, even small and supposedly well run conspiracies get blown wide open because, honestly speaking, people are fairly critical and investigative. The sheer logistics of covering up a conspiracy is actually pretty unbelievable. Now when you're talking about the holocaust which has tens of if not hundreds of thousands of witnesses-both by standing and those complicit, survivors etc. it's even more unlikely that a conspiracy exists. Because to coordinate such an effort with all those people from scores of countries, including two diametrically opposed ones (US and USSR) across a period of six decades + is difficult in the sense that nothing in history of that magnitude has ever been carried out. I guess though, if you believe in other conspiracies like 9/11 being an inside job you won't agree with this.


I completely agree with this. I think I read this exact logic in a book called 'Why People Believe in Weird Things'.
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Re: Cordoba House "Ground Zero Mosque"

Unread postby dajiangjun » Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:53 pm

WeiWenDi wrote:
And yet, we have hard documentation, photo and video evidence that the Nazis had designated camps used specifically for slaughtering people. Whether or not their doing so was rational or logistically sound, denying that they did it requires what amounts to a denial of reality.


Half the links you posted did not work, but as to photo or video evidence, we have photo and video evidence of graves with emancipated bodies, but we did not have photo evidence or video evidence that 6,000,000 Jews were systematically murdered via gas execution. We have evidence that Jews were persecuted by the Nazis, put into work camps by the Nazis, and if they were considered an enemy of the state (through attempting to subvert the Nazi government from within or being a communist partisan) Jews, and others, were killed by the Nazis. However, I think with some of the evidence weighed up, it is possible to question the official version and numbers of the Holocaust.

Source? And please, no more neo-Nazi conspiracy theory bunkum from you.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/date ... 520986.stm

And from THE HOLOCAUST CONTROVERSY The Case For Open Debate-

"In 1990, the Auschwitz State Museum revised the old propaganda claim of four million murdered humans down to one million—base not upon facts, but upon estimates! In 1994, a French scholar reduced this figure further down to less than 700,000, and in 2002, another mainstream Holocaust scholar reduced the Auschwitz death toll to 500,000—again not based on facts, but on "estimates."

Only two monographs were written so far on the question of how many Jews lost their lives during World War II. The first is a revisionist book concluding that some 300,000 perished. The second is authored by several recognized historians claiming that some six million died. Whereas the Revisionist book takes into consideration demographic changes of the Jewish population in all countries, the mainstream book compiles its figures by simply subtracting the number of Jews alive in Europe a few years after the war from those alive in Europe several years before the war. It ignores that the Jewish population in America, Israel, and other countries outside of Europe had increased by almost six million in this period of time, as a result of a new Exodus. Thus, those who had left Europe were simply declared to be Holocaust victims."- Germar Rudolf

Is any evidence that is contrary to the official version automatically a conspiracy theory? If I thought that the mud played a large role at the battle of Agincourt and that official numbers were off, would this also be a conspiracy theory or merely a search for the truth? The link I posted had excerpts from the Red Cross publication of that time, so unless the Red Cross are neo-Nazi conspiracy theorists, I think your statement is a bit off.

That's like saying we don't have a single letter written by William Shakespeare saying, 'Hey, you know all those plays and poems that, uh, have my name on them? Yeah, it was actually me who wrote them and not that punk poseur Edward de Vere.' Sorry, but the Endlösung was an actual widely-attested military policy within Nazi Germany, and there are very few other places such a military policy could have come from; in the end as a military leader, Hitler also bears responsibility for the actions of his subordinates.


And yet we still do not have an official document ordering the organized murder of Jews.

British Historian, Colin Cross, writes in his biography of Hitler, on page 313: "There does not exist then, anything like a written order signed by Hitler for the extermination of the Jews in Europe."

Thousands of pages of German documents have been located providing a thorough study of the feasibility of establishing a Jewish homeland on the island of Madagascar. Plans were made for the reimbursement of the 25,000 French citizens who lived there. Even the government of France studied the plan. Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, considered Madagascar a possible site for a Jewish state. He also considered Kenya, Africa, the Sinai from the Suez Canal to the Gaza Strip, and a huge area in southern Poland, but they really wanted Palestine.

Whatever the legality of state action against Holocaust deniers, whenever the fool notion that the Holocaust never happened meets the light of day and of actual scholarly scrutiny, it always fails; its supporters always retreat to denying the validity of existing records or even fabricating their own.


There are a wide variety of highly-educated people, including Jewish historians, who suspect that parts of the Holocaust are exaggeration and question the death toll and the manner of death. It's not all vile racist anti-Semites and low-brow conspiracy theorists who have questioned the event.

Fine with me as long as this hateful crap doesn't get a free pass here or anywhere.


Is it hateful to consider both sides? Does a search for truth necessarily have to be hateful? I think perhaps that if someone hated Jews, and then tried to find evidence to deny the Holocaust to support their hateful view of Jewish people, then perhaps we could consider it hateful. However, if one merely wishes to question the event, I do no think it makes the question hate-fueled, especially since there are Jews who also question the event.
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