Gay and Lesbian Marriage

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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:08 pm

James wrote:That's not terribly cool upon first inspection, but I would argue any sort of minority who feels downtrodden, once given equal rights, can to be held to a high standard for the sake of balancing things out. If they can live up to that standard people will come to see eye-to-eye with them. There are plenty of homosexuals who are adamant that society owes them something but I don't buy it. Society owes them equality and nothing more. I'm still constantly amazed by how many African Americans I meet who still feel they are trampled upon. Someone needs to smack some sense into people like this. Hopefully this is a positive impact of Obama's election.

Besides, I'd rather see homosexuals held to a high standard than for what we have now to continue—they are automatically assumed to be inferior or incompetent in many regards and that's pretty uncool. I've seen plenty of that across the history of this very thread.


Agreed on most of this. But if they are held to a higher social standard, then we ought to realise that such a standard ought to have a planned obsolescence, because these standards are built upon faulty assumptions - as you said, that homosexuals (or blacks) are automatically (and wrongly!) assumed to be inferior or incompetent. Since we are constantly building, built by and examining the life-worlds in which we exist, and this is a very deep-seated, irrational and discriminatory trend within that life-world, that trend needs to be addressed and stopped.

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[<3] Now it will! [<3]

It's hard to overstate my satisfaction...
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby James » Fri Nov 07, 2008 6:00 pm

Sorry Ranbir, I'll have to read up on that. It might be influenced by the laws of individual states. Truth be told I haven't bothered much with law on that level. I'm much more interested in the appropriate final solution.

WeiWenDi wrote:Agreed on most of this. But if they are held to a higher social standard, then we ought to realise that such a standard ought to have a planned obsolescence, because these standards are built upon faulty assumptions - as you said, that homosexuals (or blacks) are automatically (and wrongly!) assumed to be inferior or incompetent. Since we are constantly building, built by and examining the life-worlds in which we exist, and this is a very deep-seated, irrational and discriminatory trend within that life-world, that trend needs to be addressed and stopped.

I would suggested that the 'planned obsolescence' will actually take place automatically under such circumstances. When people aren't being guided to recognize someone has a lesser, through bias or a trained understanding that they are a suffering minority, they are eventually left to their own judgment. Religious bigotry will have to heal with time—no laws are going to change that—but personal perspective will wash aside in short order. It is especially important to note that the struggle faced by homosexuals is absolutely nowhere near as great as the struggle faced by the blacks, or perhaps even the struggle once faced by women. If we are left only to our own interpretation and they are expected to hold their weight in society, no longer being held back deliberately by government, people will certainly expect a great deal from them—and they will deliver. Society will respond positively in turn.

The same would be true of other minorities and their own plights. [<3]
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Fri Nov 07, 2008 6:36 pm

James wrote:When people aren't being guided to recognize someone has a lesser, through bias or a trained understanding that they are a suffering minority, they are eventually left to their own judgment. Religious bigotry will have to heal with time—no laws are going to change that—but personal perspective will wash aside in short order.


This is very true, I think. I'm not suggesting that we start making laws against specific forms of religious speech at all (we should be getting better at enforcing the laws we already have to prevent religiously-driven violence, though), but at the same time, I realise that we're both coming out of a life-world which trains bias and awareness of social distinctions into us, and we have to start pulling these habits into view if we want to get rid of them and leave people to their own judgment.

James wrote:It is especially important to note that the struggle faced by homosexuals is absolutely nowhere near as great as the struggle faced by the blacks, or perhaps even the struggle once faced by women.


This is true also. I actually think women tend to have a far easier time of it in society than blacks or hispanics do, given that they are not a minority and that they do have their own social space and speech genres in which they are able to exercise a great deal of power (and, of course, homosexuals have this social space and these speech genres as well). This is not a power that blacks and hispanics tend automatically to have in a society where the power structures are dominated by white anglophones (or so I might have said before Obama was elected president! [<3]).

James wrote:If we are left only to our own interpretation and they are expected to hold their weight in society, no longer being held back deliberately by government, people will certainly expect a great deal from them—and they will deliver. Society will respond positively in turn.


It is interesting, though - I am not convinced that the government, on a micro level, is really responsible to such a degree for holding minorities back anymore. (During the period when de jure segregation and discrimination existed, government was certainly responsible.) Even if government were to withdraw completely from the picture, many minorities still tend to have a basic nihilistic determinism about living in a white, anglophone, heterocentric society. (I think that was one of the reasons many black people were reluctant to show support for Obama early in his campaign, and I think this is one of the things he had to overcome over the course of his campaign.) Individuals are socially-constructed - the self-image that perpetrates itself is something else to deal with, and I think government's role in this is and ought to be fairly limited, because the government simply cannot lead people's lives for them. It has a role, of course, but if self-determination is what you're after here, the amount of blame you can lay at the feet of the government for the plight of minorities ought to be fairly limited, as it can be a blinder to the problems of self-image that many minorities create for themselves.
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby James » Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:57 pm

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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Sun Jun 27, 2010 7:54 pm




The mother should instruct the child that marriage is not entirely analogous with love.
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby mrwongshappymushu » Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:56 am

if anyone here is gay.. im sorry
but ive always had a hostility to and homosexual
heck im friends with one
but still im always wary of homosexuals
good people though :shock:
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby S.Teague » Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:12 am

I really don't care what people choose to do behind close doors. I was once friends with a gay guy, and I learned that gay guys know all the women, lol. They are his friends, and if you are too, you will get to meet plenty of women. So as long as we could be friends without it being akward, I always thought it was cool to be friends with a gay guy. I really don't understant the controversy in gay marriage.
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby James » Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:27 pm

Shikanosuke wrote:The mother should instruct the child that marriage is not entirely analogous with love.

Why would the mother do such a thing?
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:26 pm

James wrote:
Shikanosuke wrote:The mother should instruct the child that marriage is not entirely analogous with love.

Why would the mother do such a thing?



To be honest and factual with her child. Marriage is not entirely analogous with love, and marriage doesn't even have to include love. Marriage is a civil institution, a formerly religious institution which was codified. Marriage, throughout history, has been many things..but never solely about love. To do otherwise would be to mislead her child about the realities of marriage and all of its implications. Also to let her child know that the reason behind the law may not be to 'outlaw love' at all, or have anything to do with love.
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:49 pm

Shikanosuke wrote:To be honest and factual with her child. Marriage is not entirely analogous with love, and marriage doesn't even have to include love. Marriage is a civil institution, a formerly religious institution which was codified. Marriage, throughout history, has been many things..but never solely about love. To do otherwise would be to mislead her child about the realities of marriage and all of its implications. Also to let her child know that the reason behind the law may not be to 'outlaw love' at all, or have anything to do with love.


I agree with you to an extent. It certainly seems wrong and damaging to give children Disney-esque expectations about romance and marriage which may prove destructive to their future relationships. But, at the same time, love has been (if nowhere near the primary reason) integrally connected with marriage at least since the time of St Paul. The onset of the Industrial Era and the rising expectations correlating to quality of life made love a more important aspect (as opposed to utilitarian concerns about producing offspring and having a helpmeet, or political concerns about securing resources and stable relationships with competing powers). Marriage became, in essence, a means of socially recognising an exclusive sexual partnership with affection becoming a primary focus.

So the child's criticism of the law that it has the consequence of outlawing love, if not precise, is nonetheless a valid criticism. It is denying same-sex couples equal access to the social benefits of marriage, and in essence dehumanising or denying recognition to the way their lives are arranged.
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