Favorite Historical Samurai

[dymlos timbre]

I wish to ask, what do you think might have happened had shingen takeda lived a few more years (this can be applied to kenshin uesugi as well) do you htink he would have destroyed the oda-Tokugawa alliance? you have to remember shingen Won at mikatagahara BUT it was not a decisive defeat, tokugawa quickly recover'd afterwards and Conducted raids on the takeda camp (reminds me of hefei lol).

[mrbeate]

I wish to ask, what do you think might have happened had shingen takeda lived a few more years (this can be applied to kenshin uesugi as well) do you htink he would have destroyed the oda-Tokugawa alliance? you have to remember shingen Won at mikatagahara BUT it was not a decisive defeat, tokugawa quickly recover'd afterwards and Conducted raids on the takeda camp (reminds me of hefei lol).

The question is, if Harunobu and Kagetora lived 20 years longer, and! Made a very strong friendly trustworthy alliance with each other. That would change the course of history. I mean, Shingen Takeda and Kenshin Uesugi would dominate Oda, Tokugawa, Hojo, Mori, Shimazu, Date, Asakura, Azai, and Chosokabe Clans.

[dymlos timbre]

I think you might be putting to much praise on those 2 men, the hojo mori oda tokugawa etc. were no clans to be taken lightly, on one end you have oda who made the used of long pikes and tight musket formation mainstray, hojo had amazing engineering and odawara was said to be almost inpenetrable (yes i know it was taken down the fact is it took a damn good while.) his cavalry charge is famous but not invincible, i think part of the reason is because before then horse tactics revolved on archery not lancers so at the time diamyo would have been at a lose on how to deal wit hthe new tactic he incorperated.

[mrbeate]

I think you might be putting to much praise on those 2 men, the hojo mori oda tokugawa etc. were no clans to be taken lightly, on one end you have oda who made the used of long pikes and tight musket formation mainstray, hojo had amazing engineering and odawara was said to be almost inpenetrable (yes i know it was taken down the fact is it took a damn good while.) his cavalry charge is famous but not invincible, i think part of the reason is because before then horse tactics revolved on archery not lancers so at the time diamyo would have been at a lose on how to deal wit hthe new tactic he incorperated.

mehh... In my opinion the both of them and their clans can unify Japan. Its not like Oda,Tokugawa,Hojo,and Mori are just gonna all ally and wipe out The Uesegui and Takeda. Even the likes of Ieyasu and Nobunaga cannot defeat Shingen or Kenshin, at the time Ieyasu was still pretty young and not at his peak yet so he can be wiped out if effort is put into it.

Anyways, another one... Kagetora, Harunobu and UJIYASU lived 20 years longer AND all aligned with each other. Hojo,Takeda,and Uesugi run and headed by the 3 warlords who were feared throughout the land because of their leadership and intelligence would definitely defeat all.

[dymlos timbre]

Yet all three fought eac hother more than they fought others (besides shingens shinano campaign.) also Nobunaga oda cannot be taken lightly a man like him wont roll over and die easily (took a trusted general to backstab) not to mention shingen NEVER fought oda himself, rather two lackluster generals that retreated early in. tokugawa was handily defeated but like i said he quickly recovered and conducted raids on the takeda and the refused to go out and fight witch would have made the takeda drag there feet into siege warfare. The battle of tedorigawa, there have been many accounts of the battle, some assume the battle involved 80,000 men total, and kenshin personally attacked nobunaga who personally lead and triumphed over oda, and there are some accounts that nobunaga himself was never present since there are recordsof him being in kyoto at that time. they had the means to take the land, but i think it would be far more difficult than some may think. Just because you live longer does NOT make you more skilled, shingen has been seen to have lost battles just as easily as he has won them and loseing two generals in a battle with kenshin shows that he can sometimes be prone to slipping up. Kenshin on the other hand was not an oppertunist something nobunaga can easily exploit. i would also like to point out that nobunaga also had himself, tokugawa and hashiba the three unifiers, hashiba did in fact.. defeat all right?(tokugawa can be seen as an exception) it would not be one epic field battle and then all the land is theirs, Nobunaga's castle building would prove to be very toublesome to those men.

[mrbeate]

You have to look at it differently, Nobunaga was up against warlords which were not up to the likes of Shingen,Kenshin or Ujiyasu. Kenshin, Shingen and Ujiyasu was at the time the most powerful warlords in their areas and would battle each other instead of heading east. Oda on the otherhand was already in the Central where he overwhelmed mediocre and weak opponents. The biggest threat to Oda other then the three above was the Mori. Kenshin, Shingen, and Ujiyasu were all men on skill who died before they can really do much, Kenshin heads east wins battle and dies. Shingen heads east wins a battle against Tokugawa and dies later. Ujiyasu... well he died before heading east to the capital.

[dymlos timbre]

We dont know how they would fare against eac hother though, nobunaga never personally fought ANY of those men, and to say the azai and other warlords were not worthy or up to gruff to shingen and gang is VERY false. the azai gave the oda a run for his money for a little bit, also if shingen is so skilled then why did he suffer such decisive defeats, lost two of his best generals to kenshin and failed to take a castle his son succeeded in doing? you put to much praise on a man who has been just as romantisized as Zhuge(probably to make tokugawa look good when he raided the takeda and forced them into a river). Kenshin had flaws as well, but im not hear to list all the mans flaws im here to tell you that oda would be no walk in the park, he revolutionized the way japan fought, witch i dont hear anything about how shingen changed the way war was fought, he had brilliant generals such as hideyoshi and shibata, niwa nagahide, toshiie maeda( please note that the men kenshin defeated were shibata and toshiie NOT nobunaga, and the account of nobunaga thinking about surrendering is false by the time kenshin marched he already had such grand castles like none have seen before built azuchi is a good example) i can give you a huge list of notable oda retainers (more bigger than shingens "25" generals) but im not, the point is shingen would never be able to "lulz wtf pwn" nobunaga and the result of the battle would be just a huge power check, with shingen checking oda, and kenshin keeping the takeda in check. with the hojo thrown in.Whether it was the battle of nagashino or not, the invention of long pikes and tight musket formation was bringing about a revolution in the way everyone fought, long pikes and muskets gave normal grunts the means to defeat cavalry, witch is soley effective whether or not the first charge broke the formation.

[mrbeate]

I only remember Shingen having about 2 major/moderate defeats. Nobunaga had many more defeats then Ujiyasu,Kenshin, or Shingen. Nobunaga's generals were far more capable then Kenshin's and the others BUT in my opinion Oda and Tokugawa could not defeat, the Hojo, Takeda, and Uesugi. Kenshin also 'revolutionized' war as well. He made tactics and formations that allows tired troops to withdraw while fresh ones replace them without breaking formation and allowing the enemy to take advantage of switching troops. Sure Nobunaga traded with foreigners and obtained ashigarus, but i doubt his muskets can be an invincible force. Shingen known for his brilliant calvary tactics and Ujiyasu who did the same thing Nobunaga did to the Imagawa was a brilliant man equal to Nobunaga. The 3 of them exceed Nobunaga, and i only know some Oda generals were actually smart on the battlefield. Toshiie, Mitsuhide, Hideyoshi, Kanbei, and a few others are actually good generals.

[dymlos timbre]

Nobunaga had a big array of generals, Also some historians agree that shingens tactics were not even as great as they sound (be'ing standard rush and flank) sure kenshin made some smart formations, but thets not going to do much when it comes to seige warfare, and seige warfare is something nobunaga was good at (or he would simply raze it to the ground) you also have to remember there IS a reason cavalry was becoming out dated, muskets were proving that you can have a large amount of soldiers fire devestating rounds in huge quantities without years of training, were as for each cavalry soldier shingen lost he just lost at least a years worth of men training (it takes a while for the horse and the soldier to become trained its not just get on the horse and charge) Its also known that the loud noises the muskets produced scared cavalry, an animal that is easily frightened by sudden noises. Just because people are "well-Known" for something does not make what there known for invincible, Look shingen is my favourite warlord but i know for a fact that he is in no way some super diamyo would would have just pushed oda around like nothing. As for tokugawa, he wouldnt be wiped out unless oda was there, if shingen marched on him he would call Oda for help, and they would combine there forces, a combined oda tokugawa is not something you can toss aside because its "lol shingen". the Hojo i do not beleive have ever fought oda, at least not in any major way. and with oda campaigning towards the west i dont think the hojo would have been a problem until he was done in the west. Kenshin only started attacking once oda gained lands towards him. These were all warlords and shingen would have attacked kenshin had he marched so far to atack oda , same with hojo shingen was in a difficult position surrounded by the oda, tokugawa uesuig and hojo all in witch were hostile, and sometimes with fickle alliances. So im not saying the Oda would win or the takeda (or any of the others) im mainly saying it would not be a walk in the park for either side and the possibility of winning is around equal to each side.

[mrbeate]

I said that if the Takeda, Hojo and Uesugi made a grand alliance of trustworthy bonding friendly etc. So they wouldn't fight amongst them selves, until they are the only Independent ruling Clans left. I Think its best, that we end our conversation, as we rate the 4 men highly in different ways. Our opinions and perspectives would be different and it could go on forever, i've lost my will to argue in this topic .