Romance of the Three Kingdoms Groups/Bands

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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms Groups/Bands

Unread postby Tarrot » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:07 am

Since the Black Mountain Bandits were mentioned, the Bobo bandits would also be another group that had quite a few members, although these might be better to go under group searches (ie: Where the Yellow Turbans currently are), or maybe a separate section for bandits, separate from the group.

I was trying to find the group of people Cao Pi recognized but I think that's the 7 Masters of the Jian'An period that was mentioned.

Another one, The 8 Men of Distinction, from Rafe's Tome:

"Sima Fang had eight sons, Lang, Yi, Fu, Kui, Xun, Jin, Tong and Min. Each had the
character 達 "distinction" in his style, and they were known as the Eight Men of Distinction."

Which reminds me that we actually don't have Sima Kui, Jin, Tong, Min, or Xun in the Encyclopedia. And since I only have the digitized version of Rafe's bio, I don't have access to the original Chinese names. I think I still have access, I'll go edit in short-bios for those guys since I have some free time.

Edit: Damn, beat me to it.

Edit 2: Ok, new Sima's and their sons updated so you can do the 8 Simas of Distinction now if you add it.
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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms Groups/Bands

Unread postby James » Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:41 pm

I've updated the first post with collected information about each group!

This looks like it is going to be a lot of fun. I'm thinking that perhaps we can turn this into a cool little project on the site, and though I'm dreading it a little, I could create a new Development Project section for managing these groups (I need to redesign the whole thing from the ground up to get away from my ancient, difficult-to-manage code). Here are some things which would be great to know about each group:

Chinese Names
I like the idea of collecting the traditional Chinese name used to describe a group. At some point I can perhaps even make the encyclopedia wise enough to recognize these names when entered in Chinese and redirect the viewer to the group in question. And if we're going to catalog the groups, this is an important tidbit to have. :)

Date/Timeframe
It would be helpful to have some sort of starting date to help in organizing groups chronologically. A circa date could be fine, or perhaps a date range. I'm not sure what we would enter into the database, but for organizing, in the present, this could be very helpful information.

Fact or Fiction? Group History
We should share notes of the group's origin. Is it a monicker that was assigned in times past to describe people? For what reason? Was it something they actually called themselves in history? A title traced to the novel? Is the group from a video game?

Sources
Always good to know where a group originated, be it a chapter of Sanguozhi or Dynasty Warriors.

Information About the Group
This is the meat of the subject. Any and all information, whether historical, fictional, or speculation, is welcome to help craft some introductory text about a group in question.
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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms Groups/Bands

Unread postby James » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:04 pm

Five Tigers of Shu
Can anyone share more information about them? Obviously it is the most popular group. I recall reading once that Liu Shan actually recognized these five men in some context posthumously? I haven't been able to find information about that again since. I'm curious where the Five Tigers originated.

Rydain wrote:As I understand it, the Five Generals of Wei deliberately excluded Cao and Xiahou family. I have heard of folk tale references to Eight Tigers (八虎騎), the top eight generals related to Cao Cao, but have been unable to find any more information on this term.

First I've heard of them! I'd love to find out more.

Crazedmongoose wrote:I've heard of a grouping of the best wei generals as:
From without the clan: Zhang Liao, Xu Huang, Zhang He, Yu Jin, Yue Jin (ie. the five generals of wei)
From the clan: Can Ren, Xiahou Yuan, Xiahou Dun, Cao Hong (though honestly what did Xiahou Dun and Cao Hong do to deserve this?)

Where do you suppose the 'from without the clan' group originated? It seems to be the five Chen Shou grouped in a single chapter, but I'm not sure if that was for a special reason, or if the group's origination is somehow tied to this fact.

And so we've got a five including the clan, and a five from the clan. Do you have any information on where any of these groups originated?

Qu Hui wrote:The Black Mountain Bandits were a big one. Also, perhaps the two groups of conspirators against Cao Cao mentioned in the novel?

See below about the bandits. I'm thinkin' about them.
I think it is worthwhile to add the Girdle Edict group and the other.

Xu Yuan wrote:竹林七賢, Seven Sages of the Bamboo Grove
Xi Kang, Liu Ling, Ruan Ji, Ruan Xian, Xiang Xiu, Wang Rong and Shan Tao.
They lived during the tail end of the Three Kingdoms Era and I'm pretty sure one was even killed during the Cao Shuang sweep.

Ah! Heard of them. This is definitely the sort of group we want to add, but any information about them would be helpful.

Xu Yuan wrote:Also I'm surprised the Seven Scholars of Jian An hadn't been mentioned yet?
建安七子, Seven Scholars of Jian'an
They include Kong Rong, Chen Lin, Wang Can, Xu Gan, Ruan Yu, Ying Chang and Liu Zhen

Same here.

Xu Yuan wrote: Three Cao's (couldn't find the character's for Cao or Three that easily)
Cao Cao, Cao Pi, and Cao Zhi for their literary talent.

Good suggestion. I wonder if it is a title that was assigned to them from the scholars, or general educated population, in years that followed?

Lu Kang wrote:What about the pure conversationalists groups in the Latter Wei.

I know of the Clever Four (四聪) led by Xiahou Yuan and consisting of Deng Yang, Ding Mi, and possibly He Yan.

There was a group called the Unfettered Eight (八达) that was led by Zhuge Dan. Without having looked, I'm not sure if the members of this group were ever named.

And there was another group at the time called the Eminent Three (三豫) that consisted of Liu Xi, Sun Mi and Wei Lie.

All these men were recommended for the death penalty by Dong Zhao, but were instead dismissed.

So when you describe them as a 'pure conversationalist group' you're saying that they only appeared in the execution order from Dong Zhao? Or do we know anything about the groups from other sources? It could be worth entering groups which appear even in such a limited context with a generalized introduction so people can at least search for the listing.

Lu Kang wrote:From everything I've seen, these groups are not explicitly named in either the SGZ or the novel. The closest is a mention of Sun Jian and his four generals when preparing to do battle with Hua Xiong. I think they may come from a video game. I see no reason to exclude a group simply for being from a video game, but it would probably be good to note such a thing.

Agreed. It is definitely worth adding something like a video game group, and I would hope to introduce information about where such a group originated. Either in an introductory paragraph or perhaps we can even have a line that lists, as briefly as possible, where the group originated (e.g. Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Dynasty Tactics, History).

Lu Kang wrote:There was also the group of warlords who formed the Guandong Coalition (關東聯軍) aka "Anti-Dong Zhuo Alliance". Of course that has me thinking. Should a search for "Chi Bi" bring up a list of the participants, perhaps even sorted by force/alliance they were part of?

The Anti-Dong Zhuo Coalition
They're already recognized in the encyclopedia. The first question, I suppose, is whether there is deviation between the group as they appear in the novel and the group as they appear in history. It seems it might be worth listing as it is a special sort of alliance, though not quite a group and not quite a listing of combatants.

It would be cool to somehow find a way to bring up everyone who appeared in a battle but that seems like it would be another (admittedly wonderful) project. Perhaps one involving the cataloging of each battle and its combatants, tied to its own searchable project.

Lady Wu wrote:PS: James, I just noticed the Wade-Giles names in KMA. The apostrophes show up as single open quotes on my computer, while they really should be apostrophes (single end quotes).

Thanks so much for the great information on the Ges!
I wondered once, in times past, about Wade-Giles. I almost always see Wade-Giles shown either with simple apostrophes (e.g. Ts'ao Ts'ao) or the grave accent (Ts`ao Ts`ao). I converted that to Ts‘ao Ts‘ao (opening quotes). Are you suggesting it should be Ts’ao Ts’ao instead? That would represent the most familiar English, but for some reason I almost never see the Wade-Giles named represented in this way. (I'm happy to update the database to make corrections of this sort).

Tarrot wrote:Since the Black Mountain Bandits were mentioned, the Bobo bandits would also be another group that had quite a few members, although these might be better to go under group searches (ie: Where the Yellow Turbans currently are), or maybe a separate section for bandits, separate from the group.

I can promote pretty much any group to actually appear as its own heading in the Encyclopedia. And once some bugs are kinked out, you should be able to bring up any of them as a category as long as it is one of the 'kingdoms' listed in their profile in the Development Project (you may have noticed now that in an Encyclopedia entry you can actually click on any of the listed kingdoms to view all of that kingdom's members). I guess this is a good question. Do we want to create 'groups' for these small bands, or do we want to treat them more like proper factions?

We can always do both, I suppose. The only drawback of factions is that they're not as easily searchable. The drop-down menus allow people to view specific factions and the URL can be altered to display any faction, but there's no user search.

Tarrot wrote:I was trying to find the group of people Cao Pi recognized but I think that's the 7 Masters of the Jian'An period that was mentioned.

Kong Rong, Chen Lin, Wang Can, Xu Gan, Ruan Yu, Ying Chang and Liu Zhen?

Tarrot wrote:Another one, The 8 Men of Distinction, from Rafe's Tome:

"Sima Fang had eight sons, Lang, Yi, Fu, Kui, Xun, Jin, Tong and Min. Each had the
character 達 "distinction" in his style, and they were known as the Eight Men of Distinction."

Which reminds me that we actually don't have Sima Kui, Jin, Tong, Min, or Xun in the Encyclopedia. And since I only have the digitized version of Rafe's bio, I don't have access to the original Chinese names. I think I still have access, I'll go edit in short-bios for those guys since I have some free time.

Edit 2: Ok, new Sima's and their sons updated so you can do the 8 Simas of Distinction now if you add it.

Thanks for adding them! I'm definitely going to add a group for the lot of them. I'll be adding all the groups we decide upon once I have enough information to play with.
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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms Groups/Bands

Unread postby Qu Hui » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:09 pm

Here's some info on the Black Mountain Bandits if you do decide to add them.

Chinese Name: Unknown
Timeframe: 185-205
Group History: Historical, were named for the region where they were most active. Was a historical, contemporary name.
Sources: To Establish Peace/Zhizhi Tongjian
Information: See here. (Yes, shameless self-promotion, I know)
Brief Summary: Formed in 185 under the leadership of Flying Swallow Yan (Zhang Yan). During their peak (185-c.194), they were able to raid the area that would later become Yuan Shao's territory without fear of punishment. Attempted to expand into Yanzhou under Poison Yu, but failed. This marked the beginning of their decline. Attempted to aid Gongsun Zan against Yuan Shao in 197-8, but Zan was defeated anyway. In 205 Zhang Yan surrendered to Cao Cao, thus marking the end of the Black Mountain Bandits.
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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms Groups/Bands

Unread postby Xu Yuan » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:24 am

All of the Sages have a wikipedia article (to my great surprise, considering that the Masters of Jian'An aren't all wikipedia-ized)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruan_Ji

Ruan Ji was really the most important fellow of the group with a great amount of works and poems of the time. A fantastic musician who was in the Wei court. He was a vocal critic of Confucianism and its ways. Seemed to be either bisexual or homosexual (there isn't a wife mentioned as far as I saw) No birth or death dates oddly enough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xi_Kang

(Or Ji Kang), was apparently Ruan Ji's lover. He too was an avid writer, a very vocal critic of Confucianism and because he insulted Sima Zhao and Zhong Hui (I'd love to know what he said to them), he was sentenced to death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shan_Tao_(Taoist)

Apparently this guy is noted for only having his wife spy on Ruan Ji and Xi Kang having sex. And her taunting him that he can never be their equal in the bedroom. (...okay?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Ling

This guy is pretty funny, oddly enough the only one of the Seven Sages that have a definitive birth date. He look his colleagues was also outspoken but he had a little something special, he was a notorious drunk who always had a servant by his side to refill his cup and a shovel to bury him if he would ever fall over dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruan_Xian

Ruan Xian is apparently just a famous musician.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiang_Xiu

Apparently an annotator of Zhuangzi which was later used by Guo Xiang. He explained a few things to Sima Zhao on his works to assure he meant no harm by them, as his friend Xi Kang had only recently been killed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Rong_(Jin_Dynasty)

The only one of the Seven Sages to take an active part in the kingdoms affairs. He was a general that attacked Wu. To be honest, I have no clue why he's considered one of the Seven Sages, he doesn't seem to do anything... sagely?
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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms Groups/Bands

Unread postby Lady Wu » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:02 am

The Seven Sages of the Bamboo Grove were a group of thinkers who challenged the Confucian societal norms of the day and engaged in the "Pure Conversation" movement (a philosophical movement focusing on metaphysical discussions). They are considered the earliest practitioners of Neo-Taoism. They were all involved in the court somehow, and were opposed (at some point or another) to the Jin.

Ruan Ji's dates are given as 210-263 on Wiki. He had some minor positions during Wei, but he would quit whenever he sensed that trouble was coming (he was drafted by Cao Shuang but refused to go as he knew that Cao Shuang wouldn't last long). He had a daughter whom Sima Zhao wanted to have wed to Sima Yan. To avoid the marriage, he got drunk for 60 days (!!) and Sima Zhao had to just call off the marriage because no one was able to communicate with the bride-to-be's father. The Sima family kept trying to recruit Ruan Ji, or consult him on stuff, but every time Ruan Ji would just get piss drunk and refuse to cooperate. Eventually, Sima Zhao forced Ruan Ji to write stuff for him, and as Ruan was an extremely talented writer (even when drunk), Sima Zhao protected him even when all the traditionalists were pissed off at Ruan Ji's crazy behaviour.

Ji Kang (223-263) was a musician and writer who married Cao Cao's granddaughter (or great-granddaughter according to some). He had a post under the Wei, but was really not that into working in the government. When Sima Zhao came to power, he really wanted to recruit Ji Kang, but Ji Kang was uncooperative and even dissed Zhong Hui, who was sent to recruit him. Later, Ji Kang's friend was framed for something and was sent to prison. Ji Kang stood up for him and testified in his case, and was sent to jail as well. Zhong Hui suggested to Sima Zhao to get rid of him once and for all, so Ji Kang was sentenced to death. Three thousand university students signed a petition to release him (early example of Chinese student activism?) but the appeal was denied. Before his execution, Ji Kang asked for his zither, played one last song (the music was lost forever), and calmly faced his death.

Shan Tao (205-283) avoided being involved in politics in his early years, seeing the struggle between Sima Yi and Cao Shuang. He was a good judge of character and had recommended many people to government, but he himself took a careful attitude towards politics. He stayed out of everything until he was 40 and joined Sima Zhao, and had a very successful career. He tried to recommend his friend Ji Kang to the government, but only received a scathing essay from Ji Kang in reply. However, that didn't seem to have dampened their friendship--on the day of his execution, Ji Kang entrusted his two children to Shan Tao's care. He was more into politics and stuff than the other Sages, and really his Neo-Taoism ties were only from his youth. However, even after he attained high position, he remained thrifty and honest, and was greatly respected by all.

Xiang Xiu (?-27x) was really into Taoist texts, especially the Zhuangzi, for which he wrote a detailed commentary. However, he also had a thorough knowledge of Confucianism, and advocated an amalgamation of the two schools of thought. While he wanted to stay out of politics, he was forced to take an official post after his friend Ji Kang was executed.

Liu Ling (221?-300) was mainly a drunk and a harsh critic of Neo-Confucianism. He advocated a Taoist, "go with the flow", laissez-faire attitude in living and in governance, and while he did at one point hold rank in the Jin, he was dismissed due to poor performance. I have always loved that anecdote about him in the Shihuo Xinyu:

Liu Ling drank wantonly and had little regard for propriety. Often he would go around naked inside his house. When visitors ridiculed him for that, he would reply, "The universe is my home, and the house is my clothing. What are you guys doing in my pants?"


Wang Rong (234-305) served under Jin, and despite his many accomplishments kept a low profile and was very down to earth. He was the youngest out of the Seven Sages. He was a precocious child and skilled at "Pure Conversation"; and when he was just 14, he befriended Ruan Ji, who was a good 20-something years older than him. He had a long career and was promoted to a high position in the Jin Court, but managed to stay out of serious trouble even during the Rebellion of the Eight Princes.

Random note: I was intrigued by this line in the Jin Shu biography of Wang Rong: "Wang Rong's son Wang Wan was known for his character. He was big and fat as a child, and Wang Rong put him on a diet of whole grains. However, he got fatter and fatter, and died when he was 19." :shock:

Ruan Xian was Ruan Ji's nephew (no dates). He had zero use for social rules, and spent a lot of time chilling in the bamboo grove with his uncle (with a lot of wine). And he was a rad musician. Shan Tao had recommended him for office, but Sima Zhao fired him not long after giving him a post, as Ruan Xian was drunk half the time and useless the other half. As an example of his lack of regard for social norms, he was known to hold drinking parties with his relatives where everyone would just drink out of a huge vat. Sometimes pigs would come by and drink out of the vat, and Ruan Xian would just happily drink out of the same vat as the pigs.

--------------
I really don't know anything about those claims of homosexualism. I can't see anything in Jin Shu that would point that way...
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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms Groups/Bands

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:56 am

I might be barking up the wrong tree but didn't Gongsn Zan and his two or three distasteful friends have a name? As I said I could be completely wrong.
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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms Groups/Bands

Unread postby Xu Yuan » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:07 pm

Lady Wu wrote: Real Information on the Seven Sages


Now that's what I was waiting to see! (Bad reference)
Did you translate that information Lady Wu? A lot of the information (or all of it... rather) isn't even on the Wikipedia. They have some rather poor articles for the Seven Sages. The wikipedia articles just seemed to talk about Ruan Ji and Xi Kang's homosexual relations, even going so far to hint that Shan Tao's inclusion is only because of what his wife saw.
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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms Groups/Bands

Unread postby Lady Wu » Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:27 am

Xu Yuan wrote:
Lady Wu wrote: Real Information on the Seven Sages


Now that's what I was waiting to see! (Bad reference)
Did you translate that information Lady Wu? A lot of the information (or all of it... rather) isn't even on the Wikipedia. They have some rather poor articles for the Seven Sages. The wikipedia articles just seemed to talk about Ruan Ji and Xi Kang's homosexual relations, even going so far to hint that Shan Tao's inclusion is only because of what his wife saw.

Summarized from Jin Shu, Chinese Wiki, and Baidu, plus notes from my Chinese philosophy class.
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Re: Romance of the Three Kingdoms Groups/Bands

Unread postby Lady Wu » Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:36 am

James wrote:Five Tigers of Shu
Can anyone share more information about them? Obviously it is the most popular group. I recall reading once that Liu Shan actually recognized these five men in some context posthumously? I haven't been able to find information about that again since. I'm curious where the Five Tigers originated.

The appellation "Five Tigers" arose out of folk literature in the Song and Yuan dynasties, and was used in the Sanguozhi Pinghua, which drew from folk literature. Luo Guanzhong kept the term in his Sanguozhi Tongsu Yanyi, and listed them in the order of Guan - Zhang - Ma - Huang - Zhao. This is in accordance with Chen Shou's SGZ, which placed the five in that order in the same chapter. When the Maos edited TS, they bumped Zhao Yun up to #3.

Liu Shan granted posthumous titles to Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, Ma Chao, and Huang Zhong at the same time. Zhao Yun's posthumous recognition didn't come until the year after. This has led some people to argue that Zhao Yun wasn't of the same caliber, or of the same importance, as the other four. However, on principle Chen Shou only grouped people of the same rank/level into the same chapter, so that implies that Zhao Yun should be on the same footing as the other four high-ranked generals.
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