Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby James » Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:16 pm

SilentNinja wrote:I know, too bad this isn't a 'friendly' place for Shuists alright. Let it go, I'm not going to bite Qu Hui besides everyone agrees with him.

It's a plenty friendly place for fans of Shu. Your problem is that you're trying to label everyone based on your initial discussion with them. Anybody who takes a strong stance in favor of a kingdom is going to be in for a debate here. That's not because people don't like them; it's because they've got a strong view in a forum with people who like all three kingdoms and others who try to do balanced research. Also, you're in for so much debate because you're drawing some pretty dramatic conclusions and arguing them as fact.

SilentNinja wrote:Forget it, you're not going to believe me admin. Lets just drop it now and move on.

And this is just another form of labeling.

SilentNinja wrote:did I say it was the 'best' word, English nerd? the bible is more than just a religious document, if you want me to prove it, go to watchtower.org. Sanguozhi, as old as it documented, there are MANY MANY other historical documents on the THree Kingdoms era, not just Chen Shou's book. Many different points of views on the despicble era.

Personal insults are going to start collecting warnings. Just a friendly warning.
I'll pass on using a Jehovah's Witness site to describe the bible to me, thank you.
Chen Shou's work is by far one of the most reliable and balanced works on the era.

SilentNinja wrote:They became RICH EGOMANIACS more respected than Zilong with more clarified bios, many alternatives, I could go on sir....and yet this thread here shows Liu Bei's personality.

Rich egomaniacs? Liu Bei has a long biography because he's the ruler of Shu. Zhuge Liang has a long biography because he was, perhaps, the single most important member of Shu aside from Liu Bei, and his involvement influenced aspects of the kingdom almost everywhere you looked. Zhao Yun was simply not so involved.

SilentNinja wrote:Yes I can and 'slept' with another male officer wasn't a gay reference. It didn't say he made intercourse which is more older word term than gay.

That was my point. ;)


SilentNinja wrote:So, what's your point of view?

On what? You jumped between about five topics in that response.

SilentNinja wrote:
No, because our knowledge of Sun Shang Xiang is quite limited.

That's your problem, not mine. She's a WOMAN.... :roll:

I included my original quote here for the sake of contrast to your own. What on earth do you mean by this? If you want to draw conclusions about Lady Sun's history you should base those conclusions on history. We're not writing a fan fiction here. If you want to tell us about her personality, the lack of history to back your view is your problem.

SilentNinja wrote:You can't be serious.... :shock: I already relate a few things how. Forget it, lets drop it. And have people believe Liu Bei's attack on Yi ling was justifible. :roll:

If you want to convey a point of view you should actually flesh it out, rather than rant and assume people can read your mind. You're portraying the Yiling attack as a knee-jerk reaction but fact is, it wasn't. Liu Bei had a long time to think about and plan that attack. It may very well have been for revenge, or perhaps simply because Liu Bei no longer felt he could trust Wu. It was a bad move (just as it was a bad move for Wu to attack Guan Yu in the first place) but the novel makes many assumptions to tell its story. That's fine, by the way--it's a story.

SilentNinja wrote:Are you going to say the Bible is a myth and not historical even if you wanted to know Jehovah?

If you want to debate Jehovah's Witnesses, there's a thread for that. You'll find people to be even less tolerant of emotional assumptions and unfounded conclusions there, though.
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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby James » Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:19 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:The Chen Shou bit :wink:

He had to be careful granted, saying Sima Yi was a traitorous scum bag would have been stupid, while he had a habit of risk taking, he wasn't suicidal. Yet he still included Zhen Ji's suicide, still included Cao Cao's darker deeds, still gave Liu Bei legitimacy of lineage and called him kind.

Read the rest for contrast and to understand the point I was making. Certain dark parts like Empress Zhen's 'suicide' are like puzzles which are, in some areas, conveyed in complete falsehood. I get the impression Chen Shou knew he couldn't include certain things and tried his best to leave clues and stories elsewhere for researchers to get the real picture. Some events, related to certain families, were completely omitted, though resurrected by Pei Songzhi. It is complicated.

I won't say the SGZ is 'Wei-ist' or that it isn't a reliable source, but it isn't completely balanced.

I don't know you anymore :P

Whatevah! He was my favorite novel character. You know that I like to defend the poor Shu folks from the occasional 'bitter-about-the-novel-lies' overcompensators from time to time. :lol:

Although I like to base my arguments on actual history.



P.S. Anybody have topic titles for this discussion once I split it?
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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:31 pm

It may very well have been for revenge, or perhaps simply because Liu Bei no longer felt he could trust Wu. It was a bad move


1) There are several motives behind war. I won't deny Liu Bei probably wanted revenge but he was a clever warlord, he wouldn't launch a war based on that, particularly after a two year wait. I think Liu Ye summed up the main reasons well enough, he had to make a stand to show the world he wasn't Wu's puppet, that anyone who attacked Shu must be prepared for the consequences. I think the timing was important, perhaps Liu Bei sensed a chance that he might not get again.

2) Any war you lose invariably looks like a bad move. Particularly in a war where you lose so heavily but I don't think the probable main idea behind the war (hit a Wu that might soon face Wei, had lost two senior commanders, show the world that Shu will fight back) was a bad one

Read the rest for contrast and to understand the point I was making. Certain dark parts like Empress Zhen's 'suicide' are like puzzles which are, in some areas, conveyed in complete falsehood. I get the impression Chen Shou knew he couldn't include certain things and tried his best to leave clues and stories elsewhere for researchers to get the real picture. Some events, related to certain families, were completely omitted, though resurrected by Pei Songzhi. It is complicated.

I won't say the SGZ is 'Wei-ist' or that it isn't a reliable source, but it isn't completely balanced.


In fairness, every Han empress from Empress Liang after dies through sadness and not suicide or murder, no matter how blatant that is the case. I get the point though

P.S. Anybody have topic titles for this discussion once I split it?


Zhao Yun and the war with Wu?
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Re: Liu Bei Attacks Wu; Cao Pi Joins

Unread postby Qu Hui » Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:32 pm

James wrote:P.S. Anybody have topic titles for this discussion once I split it?

How about "Zhao Yun: A Critical Analysis" for a title?
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