Guan Yus arrogance

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Re: Guan Yus arrogance

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:04 am

Things hadn't got worse, it hadn't improved true but the outstanding issues had been settled so while things were shakey, Shu presumably thought there wasn't much reason for Wu to invade
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 17034
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Guan Yus arrogance

Unread postby James » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:05 pm

Not much to add at this point!

Most anything I would have wanted to share has already been clearly expressed by Dong Zhou.

Zappa wrote:So it was afterall impossible to see the Wu thing coming?

Agreed with Dong Zhou that it was not impossible to foresee, but I would suggest that foreseeing it would have required a very strong and active distrust of Wu, to the point that the Shu folks would have expected them to do something bone-headed. Wu's betrayal, while brilliantly executed from the point of attacking Jingzhou and killing Guan Yu, was horribly shortsighted and a terrible mistake for the future of both kingdoms. Shu, and Guan Yu, likely expected that the alliance would be maintained at least enough that Wei could be opposed.
Kongming’s Archives – Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel, History and Games
“ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
  — Ben Franklin
User avatar
James
Sausaged Fish
Sausaged Fish
 
Posts: 17999
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:21 pm
Location: Happy Valley, UT

Re: Guan Yus arrogance

Unread postby Zappa » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:14 pm

for the future of both kingdoms


Shu lost Jing and Guan Yu while Wu lost an important allied is it that what you meant?
As the world changes,war comes and goes and with it might,wealth,right,freedom and land changes its owner,however the only thing that will always remain is the death,that comes with it.
User avatar
Zappa
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1343
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:36 pm

Re: Guan Yus arrogance

Unread postby James » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:37 pm

Zappa wrote:Shu lost Jing and Guan Yu while Wu lost an important allied is it that what you meant?

By ending their alliance they effectively ensured Wei would emerge the victor. Note that one of the most important orders of business for Zhuge Liang after the passing of Liu Bei was to reestablish the alliance with Wu. This is because for Wei to be defeated Wu and Shu had to cooperate.
Kongming’s Archives – Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel, History and Games
“ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
  — Ben Franklin
User avatar
James
Sausaged Fish
Sausaged Fish
 
Posts: 17999
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:21 pm
Location: Happy Valley, UT

Re: Guan Yus arrogance

Unread postby Zappa » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:42 pm

But the allaince was actually a big failure since both states never worked together against Wei not before Jing nor after Zhuge managed to make a alliance again.In fact I think Chi Bi was the only real cooperation between both.Except for the hei Fei invasion which was started by giving them a part of Jing.
As the world changes,war comes and goes and with it might,wealth,right,freedom and land changes its owner,however the only thing that will always remain is the death,that comes with it.
User avatar
Zappa
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1343
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:36 pm

Re: Guan Yus arrogance

Unread postby James » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:51 pm

Zappa wrote:But the allaince was actually a big failure since both states never worked together against Wei not before Jing nor after Zhuge managed to make a alliance again.In fact I think Chi Bi was the only real cooperation between both.Except for the hei Fei invasion which was started by giving them a part of Jing.

Well, you're wrong. Both kingdoms cooperated on many occasions both before and after the attack against Guan Yu. You don't seem much reference to it in the novel, but there's plenty in history. And coordinated attacks aside, that both countries were focusing their attention on Wei, instead of each other, is quite meaningful in itself.
Kongming’s Archives – Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel, History and Games
“ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
  — Ben Franklin
User avatar
James
Sausaged Fish
Sausaged Fish
 
Posts: 17999
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:21 pm
Location: Happy Valley, UT

Previous

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved