Jiang Wei vs. Zhuge Liang

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Jiang Wei vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby mrwongshappymushu » Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:46 am

after reading over Zhuge Liang's Northern Campaigns and Jiang Wei's northern expeditions on several sites i've found that Jiang Wei strategic movements were clearly more impulsive and direct that Zhuge Liang's which were save and sure.but i dont seem to see why they made real progress considering both had exceptional talent.
example:::
First northern campaign
At Hanzhong, Zhuge Liang held war council on the method of realization of the tactical objective of capturing Chang'an. He proposed a wide left hook to seize the upper Wei valley as a necessity to the capture of the city itself. The commander Wei Yan, however, objected to the plan and suggested a bold strike through a pass in the Qinling with 10,000 elite troops to take Chang'an by surprise. He was confident that he could hold the city against Wei until the main forces of Zhuge Liang arrived. Wei Yan's plan was rejected by Zhuge as being too ambitious; he preferred a more cautious approach.

In the spring of 228, two small forces were sent through Ji Gorge, one of which was commanded by the veteran Zhao Yun, as decoys to give the appearance of threatening Mei. The real objective, however, was to seize the Longyou area far west of Chang'an: Tianshui, Anding, Nan'an and most of all Qishan, the defensive bastion that screened the upper Wei valley.

Cao Rui, the Emperor of Wei, himself moved to Chang'an to oversee the defense. General-in-chief Cao Zhen secured Mei against Zhao Yun whilst a combined cavalry-infantry force of 50,000 under Zhang He were sent west to oppose Zhuge's main army.

Sima Yi puts down Meng Da's rebellion which was co-ordinated with Zhuge Liang. Meng Da was taken by surprise as he had not expected Sima Yi to attack without seeking court approval.

At Jieting, the strategic outpost crucial to future Shu supplies, Zhang He found the larger part of the advance guard of Shu under Ma Su entrenched on a nearby mountain top. Because he forfeited access to water supplies, Ma was easily defeated. The minor part of the vanguard stationed on the mountain road broke through Wei ranks and the remnants of Ma Su's force escaped south, only escaping total annihilation due to Zhang He's fear of ambush. Meanwhile Zhao Yun's small intrusion against Mei met with stiff resistance and Zhuge Liang ordered a general withdrawal to Hanzhong at the prospect of an outflanking motion by the Wei army. Following his defeat, Zhuge Liang had Ma Su executed for the tactical blunder at Jieting and then published a memorial to Liu Shan, in which he chastised himself for the failure and requested demotion from zaixiang(宰相 Prime Minister/Governor) to General of the Right(右将军,which means vice-general),but he held the same military power even after demotion.

Zhuge Liang's careful movements were defeated by impulsive movements!

While Jiang Wei's movements are as follows during his first northern expedition

Jiang Wei's First Northern Expedition

In 247, Jiang Wei led some troops to quell a minor uprising at Han Shan county Ping Kang Xuan. After which, he invaded Longxi, Nan'an and Jingcheng where he fought Guo Zhun and Xiahou Ba west of Tao River. Xiahou Ba fled and the army scattered.

Guo Huai dispatched Deng Ai to guard the northern coast of Bai Shui. Three days later, Jiang Wei dispatched Liao Hua to camp at the southern coast of Baishui as a ruse while he intended to launch a sneak attack at Taocheng. However, Deng Ai saw through his plans and proceeded to occupy Taocheng before Jiang Wei. He attacked and defeated Liao Hua. Deng Ai later, attempted to sheild his defence and injured Liao Hua, thus forcing him to flee.

Jiang Wei, angry and mad attacked, Taocheng with almost everything he had. He used his rams and towers to destroy Taocheng so he could destroy Deng Ai. Suddenly Sima Zhao sent his ambush team to rescue an eliminated Deng Ai. Gao Cheng taken Jiang Wei's main camp at Baishui, forcing the outraged Jiang Wei to retreat. Jiang Wei in utter defeat re-assembled his units and launched a second siege at Qucheng
In 249, Jiang Wei constructed two forts at the Qu mountains and dispatched troops to defend them. In addition, Jiang took the native people (from the Di and Qiang tribes) as hostages and forced them to obey his orders. Seeing this, Chen Tai advised his superior, Guo Huai that it would be a good opportunity for them to launch an attack on the forts given that the distance between the forts and Shu’s track was far, and the natives were resentful of the forced labor under Shu. Guo Huai agreed with Chen Tai and dispatched him to attack Shu’s defending army under Xu Zhi. At the same time, the governor of Nan'an, Deng Ai, was dispatched to lay siege to the forts. As they were speaking, Jiang Wei stole supplies for aid.

Chen Tai managed to cut the food and water supply chains to the forts but was surrounded by Shu soldiers who came out for a counter-offensive. Subsequently, Jiang Wei led his main forces to break the siege and met up with Chen Tai at the rear of Bull Head Mountain. Instead of engaging Jiang Wei's troops, Chen Tai advised Guo Huai to cut off Jiang Wei's possible retreat route. Guo Huai agreed and dispatched Chen Tai to proceed as planned. Jiang found out the maneuvers of the Wei’s armies and realized that there was a competent commander among her ranks. Despite the unfavorable situation, Jiang refused to retreat and on seeing that, the soldiers at the two forts fake surrendered to Wei.

Meanwhile Chen Tai, in madness saw through the surrender of the troops and battled them. Jiang Wei met Chen Tai again and this time they dueled. Chen Tai attacked Jiang but he dodged, making Chen Tai hurt himself. Then Jiang ran into the door that was locked, only Chen Tai's blade able to destroy it. He smashed of a piece of the wooden bamboo and blood came of his hands. Jiang was almost attacked again but dodged making the door smash. Chen Tai let Jiang retreat although Jiang would only be able to do one more invasion.

Jiang Wei for one is much to impulsive to tke Zhuge Liangs former place but who wins based on this info?? that your descision :shock:
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Re: Jiang Wei vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby Lonely_dragon » Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:43 am

I still think Zhuge Liang still better than Jiang Wei...

The main difference between them are their traits... Zhuge Liang is carefull and Jiang Wei impulsive. Zhuge Liang carefully planned his campaign since he is an able administrator; gathering info, trained his army and gather supplies before going out to try a campaign. Though his 5 campaigns ended up in failure but Shu still can stood up to Wei... And I think it was Jiang Wei's rash action and further northern campaigns are also one of the main cause that Shu fell besides reading from your summary I can't even see a good campaign on Jiang Wei... He is much too impulsive which causes many failures... While Zhuge Liang suffer 5 losses but he manages to gain a few success and victory during them... Jiang Wei on the other hand... no notes of success... :?
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Re: Jiang Wei vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby mrwongshappymushu » Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:00 pm

my thoughts exactly! Zhuge Liang also had, well more than likely had a very large expanse of knowledge of military affairs and formations while I find the Jiang Wei had little knowledge of Military Affairs but was just an clever commander.
also which i`m guessing you know Lonely_dragon
from Sun Tzu's The Art Of War he stated
Thus Generals have dangerous character traits:
One commited to dying can be slain
One commited to living can be captured
One easily angered and hasty to act can be insulted
One obsessed with being scrupulous and untainted can shamed
One who loves the people can be troubled


And I`m relly thinking Jiang Wei is number Three he was far to impulsive to be Konming's successor
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Re: Jiang Wei vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby Lonely_dragon » Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:49 am

Yes that's my point... Jiang wei is impulsive and that leads to failures...

Zhuge Liang carefully planned his campaign and make one steps at a time though perhaps his cautious steps also made him to get few success... :)
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Re: Jiang Wei vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby mrbeate » Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:07 am

Lonely_dragon wrote:Yes that's my point... Jiang wei is impulsive and that leads to failures...

Zhuge Liang carefully planned his campaign and make one steps at a time though perhaps his cautious steps also made him to get few success... :)

But Jiang Wei was more decisive and acted quickly which can beuseful.
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Re: Jiang Wei vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby James » Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:30 pm

mrbeate wrote:But Jiang Wei was more decisive and acted quickly which can beuseful.

Not so much if you're quickly making bad decisions. :)
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Re: Jiang Wei vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby mrbeate » Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:37 pm

But if your being pincered by the enemy, if you think to long you would be dead. This is the time where quick thinkers come in.
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Re: Jiang Wei vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:02 pm

yes but Jiang Wei's track record suggests he would have probably done something stupid with it after ignoring advice :wink: Liang made sure he wasn't put in such positions and if need be, could consult a quick witted officer like Wang Ping
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Re: Jiang Wei vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby mrwongshappymushu » Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:21 pm

mrbeate wrote:
Lonely_dragon wrote:Yes that's my point... Jiang wei is impulsive and that leads to failures...

Zhuge Liang carefully planned his campaign and make one steps at a time though perhaps his cautious steps also made him to get few success... :)

But Jiang Wei was more decisive and acted quickly which can beuseful.

What I find he was nothing near it he was just a very clever Commander and obviously a Kongming wannabe
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Re: Jiang Wei vs. Zhuge Liang

Unread postby James » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:09 am

mrwongshappymushu wrote:What I find he was nothing near it he was just a very clever Commander and obviously a Kongming wannabe

I don't know if I'd call him a Kongming wannabe. He had a pretty distinct style and approach to things. It seems like he tried to do his best in the ways he could. He just wasn't as good at doing those things as Kongming was. I'm also not quick to fault him for continuing the Northern Campaigns. I'm not so sure it looked like Shu was going to win any waiting game and Wei on the defensive, even if a little costly, was probably safer than Wei on the offensive.
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