Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby Zhilong » Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:33 pm

Lady Wu wrote:
xiaoxiannu wrote:Imagine if you in Liu Bei position, it's okay not see the rank,maybe anyone else more capable doing this job, but how Guan Yu's feel and how the other will see if Liu Bei didn't appoint him in the major position

But then Wei Yan was picked over Zhang Fei as the governor of Hanzhong...


I can see both sides of the argument here. But i think Wei Yan being picked here was of much less substantial significance than Guan Yu governing the whole Jing holdings of Shu. Guan Yu was effectively autonomous. In all the time Wei Yan was governor he was not really the master with Liu Bei & ZL there. Especially in ZL's time when he was encamped there.

-------

Fa Zheng is not suitable. Too new like others mentioned and he was worse than Guan Yu in some ways at managing relations. Moreover, even within the close vicinity he abused his power, away from central power he could be even worse.

I think the criteria Liu Bei used was loyalty & ability. Basically at this point Guan Yu was his top choice, then Zhang Fei & ZL. Guan Yu & Zhang Fei were his closest followers who followed him through thick & thin - Guan Yu especially returned to him despite all Cao Cao offered him. As Chen Shou notes, Guan & Zhang had the airs of statesmen & could lead armies of size. Zhao Yun at this point did not fit the bill - it was not until the very end of his career that he really impressed me in terms of being a general with a large army (and in that instance he was defeated).

While not being a fan of Guan Yu, I think ppl seem to forget his achievements at Jing. This was a region all the warlords were vying for control over & just being able to hold it all those years while Liu Bei was away campaigning & establishing his new state was no easy feat. His prestige alone was sufficient to deter some threats.
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby jiang cheng » Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:24 am

A very interesting topic

With the rest, i would say that Zhao Yun seems to be the best person for the job but he is needed in the Hanzhong so not much chances to get him out.

Zhang Fei - He is definitely not a good choice

Pang Tong - technically speaking, he is still one of the prime choice especially he is one half of the dragon and phoniex.

Wei Yan - I do not think they trust him.

Huang Zhong - he seems to be another reasonanable choice even through it is not a perfect one.

Maybe some civil officer could fill up the role as well?
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby Zappa » Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:19 pm

In my opinion he should have sended an strategist to aid Guan Yu.Guan Yu is great but if someone with more strategical knowledge would have helped him this wouldnt have happened.The best sollution would have been to let Pang Tong stay with him and to take Zhuge Liang against Yi.Zhuge wouldnt have died like Pang Tong since his more intelligent and with Pang Tong as advisor Guan Yu would have acted more careful and strenghtened the defences.
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby hahaguy » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:53 am

I somehow get the feeling that he wanted his new generals,(Wei Yan, Huang Zhong, Pang tong etc) to prove themselves in going to Yizhou.
He was already aware of the abilities of his closer officers (His sworn brothers, Zhuge Liang, Zhao Yun etc), so he was confident they could keep his newly-acquired base.
If he managed to take over Yizhou without calling for reinforcements from JingZhou, he could probably keep Jingzhou for a much longer time...
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:30 am

I somehow get the feeling that he wanted his new generals,(Wei Yan, Huang Zhong, Pang tong etc) to prove themselves in going to Yizhou.


I think that's most likely though he presumably took Pang Tong because historically he was the only military strategist Liu Bei had. Of course, when Pang Tong got fluke killed and Liu Xun's heroic defense at Loucheng stalled Liu Bei, reinforcements were needed
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby Zappa » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:09 am

Pang Tong because historically he was the only military strategist Liu Bei had

Are you sure? I thought Zhuge Liang was a strategist too.He managed to defeat Cao Cao at Bo Wan Po with his plan and he was the only reason why Liu Bei managed to to get thus far and even after Lius dead he lead the Shu armys personally against the Nanman and Wei were he planed eveything alone,perhaps he was a multitalented person but militarical strategie was one of his best subjects.
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby Elitemsh » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:27 am

Zappa wrote:Are you sure? I thought Zhuge Liang was a strategist too.He managed to defeat Cao Cao at Bo Wan Po with his plan and he was the only reason why Liu Bei managed to to get thus far and even after Lius dead he lead the Shu armys personally against the Nanman and Wei were he planed eveything alone,perhaps he was a multitalented person but militarical strategie was one of his best subjects.


Historically it was actually Liu Bei that was responsible for the ambush that defeated Xiahou Dun at Bowang. Many of the strategies that novel attritubes to Liang were historically thought up by Bei. It is said that Zhuge Liang's great talent really lied in poltics and administrative affairs and at organising armies. He wasn't that good as a military strategist.
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:10 pm

Zappa wrote:
Pang Tong because historically he was the only military strategist Liu Bei had

Are you sure? I thought Zhuge Liang was a strategist too.He managed to defeat Cao Cao at Bo Wan Po with his plan and he was the only reason why Liu Bei managed to to get thus far and even after Lius dead he lead the Shu armys personally against the Nanman and Wei were he planed eveything alone,perhaps he was a multitalented person but militarical strategie was one of his best subjects.


Zhuge Liang was arguably genius and had much to recommend him, even if he never reaches the Godly heights of the novel (then again, could any human?) but military strategy was not his forte. To add to what Elitemish said and to correct myself, Liu Bei's historical military advisor's were Pang Tong then later Fa Zheng (who Liang was jealous of), Ma Liang and Huang Quan, with Liu Bei and Zhang Fei also coming up with many ploys of their own. Should have said only Pang Tong at the time, my mistake
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby Shritzu » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:25 am

I believe I should argue for the least mentioned of the five tigers,huang zhong.The man was seasoned with years of military experiance,his focus on governing without the support of civil officers would have lied merely with the consent of the people. prehaps not as capable as guan yu,but not nearly as proud or arrogant,As far as 'Fame' I keep hearing about,that merely help with the domestic situation,personally I think that an highly talented,well seasoned-not nearly as renowned officer was needed to hold a position while progress was made elsewhere,besides as far as renown went that simply helped wei and wu asess the full threat and take advantage of it for what it was(1 man doing the job of several)they used this assesment to thier advantage not only to sieze the area but take out a prime factor in shu's sucess,as far as zhao yun goes sure he could do the job but he was more qualified elsewere as was ma chao,however even if huang zhong were to have been overrun and killed(yes a loss but not guan yu who is know either finishing what task have you or mabye even on standbye with those reinforcments)(yeah a waste of his talents,but possible to use the area as a ploy to reinforce at the last minute and catch wu or wei off guard).
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Re: Who should Liu Bei have placed in charge of Jingzhou?

Unread postby Jordan » Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:44 am

Zhuge Liang's grasp of military strategy wasn't really that good until the Northern Campaigns. Before then, he was just a good civil officer and advisor.
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