Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Discuss events that have an impact on you and the world today. A home for honest, serious, and open discussion.

Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby Ranbir » Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:49 am

Hetero couples already have recognition. Here in the UK, we have civil marriages and civil partnerships.

It just seems all a bit nit picky that they want the word 'marriage' which has and does carry religious connotations. Seems to be causing unnecessary aggravation. Especially when this whole basis of this is really after legal recognition and the rights they provide to be equal.
"The imaginary number is a fine and wonderful resource of the human spirit, almost an amphibian between being and not being." - Gottfried Leibniz
Science snobbery.
User avatar
Ranbir
For Queen and Country
 
Posts: 8537
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2003 9:27 am
Location: Your heart. <3

Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby James » Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:58 am

1) They're fighting for more than the title 'marriage'—they're still fighting for equal rights across the nation.
2) I don't blame them for fighting for every bit of equality they deserve.

I only take issue with them when they want special privileges.
Kongming’s Archives – Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel, History and Games
“ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
  — Ben Franklin
User avatar
James
Sausaged Fish
Sausaged Fish
 
Posts: 17998
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:21 pm
Location: Happy Valley, UT

Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby Antiochus » Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:50 am

Shikanosuke wrote:I don't have to prove it will, I have to prove society thinks it will.


I was unaware that "because they say so" is a valid argument.

As explained a while ago, slavery was once an accepted concept among a majority of americans. This shows that a majority can and has been wrong, especially if they base their position on arguments like "its the way it is because it is".

That society/government thinks theres a valid point in supporting this proposition. We do it all the time. For instance, we suggest a "neutral" argument that kids who grow up in "traditional" households produce better citizens, and those who grow up in say polygamist households produce unhealthy citizens (because of their environment) and presto we see polygamy illegal. The government sponsors non-neutral stances on issues of how to encourage their citizens to live, even if they lie about it.


Again, you justify the stance on homosexuality with arguments completely unrelated to the topic. How does gay marriage affect the society in any negative fashion. What will it change for the rest of the electorate that people who already have the right to live their lives as a couple get the right to consecrate their relationship on a more significant level?
If they can abolish fanaticism, let us pray for the advent of the sceptics.

Raymond Aron
The Opium of the Intellectuals
User avatar
Antiochus
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2573
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2003 5:29 pm
Location: Sherbrooke

Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:51 am

James wrote:For that to happen civil partnerships would have to be offered to men/women as well.

The best solution is same-sex marriage (and removal of civil unions unless equally accessible).


Or, better yet - make it so that the government can issue only civil-partnership licences, and once these are obtained, whether a couple is homosexual or heterosexual, they can choose to be married in whatever church, synagogue, mosque, assembly or whatever will agree to marry them. This would keep the government from becoming entangled in problems and definitions of religious importance.
Some more blood, Chekov. The needle won't hurt, Chekov. Take off your shirt, Chekov. Roll over, Chekov. Breathe deeply, Chekov. Blood sample, Chekov! Marrow sample, Chekov! Skin sample, Chekov! If I live long enough... I'm going to run out of samples.
User avatar
WeiWenDi
Hedgehog Emperor
 
Posts: 3847
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:09 am
Location: L'Étoile du Nord

Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby James » Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:03 am

That's a pretty good solution, WWD, but I have zero faith in our government's ability to remake something. All they can do is slowly sloth through it, one bite at a time. :lol:
Kongming’s Archives – Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel, History and Games
“ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
  — Ben Franklin
User avatar
James
Sausaged Fish
Sausaged Fish
 
Posts: 17998
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:21 pm
Location: Happy Valley, UT

Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:08 am

James wrote:That's a pretty good solution, WWD, but I have zero faith in our government's ability to remake something. All they can do is slowly sloth through it, one bite at a time. :lol:


:lol:

That's well and good, but in which direction would you like to see no / slow progress made?
Some more blood, Chekov. The needle won't hurt, Chekov. Take off your shirt, Chekov. Roll over, Chekov. Breathe deeply, Chekov. Blood sample, Chekov! Marrow sample, Chekov! Skin sample, Chekov! If I live long enough... I'm going to run out of samples.
User avatar
WeiWenDi
Hedgehog Emperor
 
Posts: 3847
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:09 am
Location: L'Étoile du Nord

Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby James » Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:10 am

WeiWenDi wrote:That's well and good, but in which direction would you like to see no / slow progress made?

As far as this subject goes?
I would like to see our government slowly slosh toward acceptance of homosexual marriage free of unique benefits or exclusions. It is a scary thing because we're very good at giving minorities special privileges—such as telling a company they have to hire x African Americans, or a certain percentage of minorities—and that has got to go. Similarly, special programs and steps toward equality need to be based on true equality. I'm content as long as homosexual marriage includes every single pitfall us heterosexual folks get to enjoy. :lol:

If they actually improve the legal entity that is marriage, that's icing on the cake!

But we all know the cake is a lie.
Kongming’s Archives – Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel, History and Games
“ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
  — Ben Franklin
User avatar
James
Sausaged Fish
Sausaged Fish
 
Posts: 17998
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:21 pm
Location: Happy Valley, UT

Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:53 am

James wrote:I would like to see our government slowly slosh toward acceptance of homosexual marriage free of unique benefits or exclusions. It is a scary thing because we're very good at giving minorities special privileges—such as telling a company they have to hire x African Americans, or a certain percentage of minorities—and that has got to go. Similarly, special programs and steps toward equality need to be based on true equality. I'm content as long as homosexual marriage includes every single pitfall us heterosexual folks get to enjoy. :lol:

If they actually improve the legal entity that is marriage, that's icing on the cake!


I agree here. It would be awesome if homosexuals were held to the same standards we are when it comes to how they conduct their personal and public lives and marriages/civil-partnerships/what-have-you, but I do realise that the standards that they are held to are probably going to be higher if homosexual marriage is accepted. There is still a stigma attached to being homosexual - my choir director, who is gay, says that he isn't really surprised by the fact that people will think twice before asking a gay man to look after their kids, even though the rate of paedophilia among homosexuals is as low as it is among heterosexuals.

James wrote:But we all know the cake is a lie.


If there were a 'companion cube' emoticon, I'd use it here.

By the way - after Pikachu, Gnoi-gnoi and Huo Hu, that should be the next emoticon you add.
Some more blood, Chekov. The needle won't hurt, Chekov. Take off your shirt, Chekov. Roll over, Chekov. Breathe deeply, Chekov. Blood sample, Chekov! Marrow sample, Chekov! Skin sample, Chekov! If I live long enough... I'm going to run out of samples.
User avatar
WeiWenDi
Hedgehog Emperor
 
Posts: 3847
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:09 am
Location: L'Étoile du Nord

Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby James » Fri Nov 07, 2008 6:15 am

WeiWenDi wrote:I agree here. It would be awesome if homosexuals were held to the same standards we are when it comes to how they conduct their personal and public lives and marriages/civil-partnerships/what-have-you, but I do realise that the standards that they are held to are probably going to be higher if homosexual marriage is accepted. There is still a stigma attached to being homosexual - my choir director, who is gay, says that he isn't really surprised by the fact that people will think twice before asking a gay man to look after their kids, even though the rate of paedophilia among homosexuals is as low as it is among heterosexuals.

That's not terribly cool upon first inspection, but I would argue any sort of minority who feels downtrodden, once given equal rights, can to be held to a high standard for the sake of balancing things out. If they can live up to that standard people will come to see eye-to-eye with them. There are plenty of homosexuals who are adamant that society owes them something but I don't buy it. Society owes them equality and nothing more. I'm still constantly amazed by how many African Americans I meet who still feel they are trampled upon. Someone needs to smack some sense into people like this. Hopefully this is a positive impact of Obama's election.

Besides, I'd rather see homosexuals held to a high standard than for what we have now to continue—they are automatically assumed to be inferior or incompetent in many regards and that's pretty uncool. I've seen plenty of that across the history of this very thread.

WeiWenDi wrote:If there were a 'companion cube' emoticon, I'd use it here.

Haha... will it be used? [<3]
Kongming’s Archives – Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel, History and Games
“ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
  — Ben Franklin
User avatar
James
Sausaged Fish
Sausaged Fish
 
Posts: 17998
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:21 pm
Location: Happy Valley, UT

Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby Ranbir » Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:57 am

Here in the UK they're doing swell. Even adoption recognises recognises both as legal parents. In case of that dissolution and eventual custody. Is it true that still only one person in a homosexual relationship can be recognised as a legal guardian?
"The imaginary number is a fine and wonderful resource of the human spirit, almost an amphibian between being and not being." - Gottfried Leibniz
Science snobbery.
User avatar
Ranbir
For Queen and Country
 
Posts: 8537
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2003 9:27 am
Location: Your heart. <3

PreviousNext

Return to Current Affairs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved