Did Liu Bei and his generals have any talent?

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Did Liu Bei and his generals have any talent?

Unread postby Jimayo » Thu Nov 21, 2002 9:13 pm

Alright guys, let's continue the argument here from Like father, like son here. I would just like to say that how likely is it that a terribly unskilled person(Liu Bei, as you claim quentin) could possibly create one of the three kingdoms. Treachery alone wouldn't do it. Do you think Liu Chan could of done it(a man everyone would agree was exceptionally unskilled)?
Last edited by Jimayo on Fri Nov 22, 2002 4:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Dennis » Thu Nov 21, 2002 9:22 pm

"Liu"
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Unread postby Jiang Zhi » Fri Nov 22, 2002 4:27 am

Zhou Dexiang wrote:"Liu"


It's not only the family name, which was definately one of the reasons but also the generals and advisors he had.....Zhuge Kongming was a big reason why Shu was created.....if not, Liu Bei would have been crushed at Changban......

Also, 3 loyal generals stayed with him throughout.....Zhang Fei and Guan Yu as well as.....later on......Zhao Yun :)
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Unread postby Jimayo » Fri Nov 22, 2002 4:40 am

Jiang Zhi wrote:.....Zhuge Kongming was a big reason why Shu was created.....if not, Liu Bei would have been crushed at Changban......


Not so. That was all Liu Bei. Zhuge Liang had nothing to do with military matters until after Liu Bei's death.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Fri Nov 22, 2002 4:42 am

Zhou Dexiang wrote:"Liu"

Right... having a certain degree of ambition (which Liu Bei but not Liu Shan), and the right surname (so that you have a worthy cause to draw people to your banner), gives you a huge advantage over everyone else. Liu Bei got a lot of mileage out from his "heritage". Talents are useful, but you need to have the right cause first...
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Unread postby Fan Kong » Fri Nov 22, 2002 4:57 am

I've heard anti-Shuists talk about how Liu Bei faked his descendancy? Or LGZ just made it up for SGYY........is this true?
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Unread postby Jimayo » Fri Nov 22, 2002 5:00 am

Fan Kong wrote:I've heard anti-Shuists talk about how Liu Bei faked his descendancy? Or LGZ just made it up for SGYY........is this true?


Who knows? The problem is that he could be, but may not be. People choose to believe what they want to believe. Of course if he faked it, that would tend to make me respect him even more(as that would be a brilliant move).
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Fri Nov 22, 2002 5:04 am

Fan Kong wrote:I've heard anti-Shuists talk about how Liu Bei faked his descendancy? Or LGZ just made it up for SGYY........is this true?

I don't think it's faked, since SGZ also mentions that he's the descendant of so and so emperor. The thing is, it's been literally hundreds of years... Emperor Jing, from whom Liu Bei claimed his heritage, ruled in 156BC. Anti-shuist generally claim that such a distant relationship to the imperial house is not a big deal, and Liu Bei's just grabbing at straws there for a cause to summon men to himself.
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Unread postby Starscream » Fri Nov 22, 2002 5:06 am

Fan Kong wrote:I've heard anti-Shuists talk about how Liu Bei faked his descendancy? Or LGZ just made it up for SGYY........is this true?


According to SGZ, Liu Bei did have imperial relations as one of his ancestors was a son of Han Jing Di, the fourth Emperor of Han Dynasty. Xian Di was the twelve emperor, so the relation between Liu Bei and Xian Di is neither near nor far... :?:
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Unread postby Jimayo » Fri Nov 22, 2002 5:06 am

Lady Wu wrote:I don't think it's faked, since SGZ also mentions that he's the descendant of so and so emperor. The thing is, it's been literally hundreds of years... Emperor Jing, from whom Liu Bei claimed his heritage, ruled in 156BC. Anti-shuist generally claim that such a distant relationship to the imperial house is not a big deal, and Liu Bei's just grabbing at straws there for a cause to summon men to himself.


Which is wrong. Those relationships were considered quite valid in that time period. Going by today's standards is not the way to look at why he claimed to be a descendant.
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