Yuan Shao's Force

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Unread postby Yuan Benchu » Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:36 pm

Still, if not Ju Shou, Tian Feng. Who was superior than Ju Shou as a warlord and I don't think Tian Feng was the insulting or slandering type.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:10 pm

well the main irony is that Ju Shou and Tian Feng were superior military stratagists then the people Cao Cao had. Every single thing that Xun Yu and the rest of them said that Yuan Shao wouldn't do Tian Feng and Ju Shou were pushing for. It is interesting to me that if Yuan Shao had placed more faith in these two people instead of the people he listened to then Cao Cao really wouldn't have stood much of a chance. I mean look at their advice, Cao Cao was diliberatly not looking out for those things because he and his advisors "knew" what Yuan Shao would do. A real shame that Tian Feng and Ju Shou died during this conflict if they had joined Cao Cao then nothing would have stopped him.
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Unread postby Yuan Benchu » Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:02 pm

Yes it is a shame, but not a possibility, since they were both too loyal. Many people seemed loyal to the Yuan family, even with Yuan Tan. Xin Ping utterly refused to serve Cao Cao, as did Feng Ji and Shen Pei. There was something unique to Yuan Shao's force. It was totally different to any other force, and the ties between the officers were mostly very strong. Not as many betrayals as you might think when it comes to the conflict between Yuan Shao and Cao Cao. I can think of 3 at the top of my head, Xin Pi, Gao Lan and Zhang He. Now, considering how bad alot of you are saying Yuan Shao supposedly was, he had a dman good army that was loyal.
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Unread postby Beauty Warrior Zhou » Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:41 pm

Yuan Benchu wrote:Yuan Shao's officer was drunk, and Yuan Shao had no way of knowing that his largest supply depot was being overun. And anyway, are you on about Chun Yugiong or Benchu? Because your reply doesn't mention anything about the former, whom I was speaking about.


Ah I'm sorry... :oops: Yeah I took a wrong quote (I wrote while answering telephone). My point actually to give my opinion about Yuan Shao.

Dong Zhou wrote:Maybe is she was replying to the Ju Shou, advisor cliques post and quoted wrong bit?

:roll: :oops: :wink:


Oh about Yuan Shao advisors. I don't know much about them historically, and what did they had done in their service. According to Xun Yu's judgement in his SGZ bio, Xun Yu said no praise upon all of them, especially Shen Pei, Tian Feng, Yan Liang and Wen Chou. Ju Shou also wasn't quite remarkable neither in his previous service in Han Fu's forces nor in Yuan Shao's forces. He was loyal? Perhaps he was.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:59 pm

The critiques that Xun Yu and Guo Jia give to Cao Cao about Yuan Shao's people is actually pretty off. Yuan Shao had some of the most talented people in his service at the time and if he listened to the right people then Cao Cao would have been defeated quite easily. Also Yuan Shao had some of the most loyal people compared to forces that lost. The majorty of his people (usually the most talented) chose to die rather then surrender to Cao Cao. Cao Cao got some decent people from Yuan Shao like Zhang He but Shao's best people either died fighting or had to be executed.
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Unread postby MarvelousLingTong!!!!!! » Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:44 am

Yuan Benchu wrote:Yes it is a shame, but not a possibility, since they were both too loyal. Many people seemed loyal to the Yuan family, even with Yuan Tan. Xin Ping utterly refused to serve Cao Cao, as did Feng Ji and Shen Pei. There was something unique to Yuan Shao's force. It was totally different to any other force, and the ties between the officers were mostly very strong. Not as many betrayals as you might think when it comes to the conflict between Yuan Shao and Cao Cao. I can think of 3 at the top of my head, Xin Pi, Gao Lan and Zhang He. Now, considering how bad alot of you are saying Yuan Shao supposedly was, he had a dman good army that was loyal.


I thought Feng Ji was executed by Yuan Tan on Guo Tu's advice?
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Unread postby Yuan Benchu » Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:21 am

Wasn't that Tian Feng that was executed? Ju Shou was killed I think while trying to escape from Cao Cao. After Cao Cao offered Ju Shou the chance to serve under him.
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Unread postby Elitemsh » Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:47 am

Yuan Shao had too much pride, making him easy to manipulate. He put too much faith in the false accussations of his advisors, instead of trying to assess situations for himself. In my opinion, Yuan Shao was someone whose trust could be bought easily by flattering, which is probably what Guo Tu and Feng Ji did reguarly. Had he put more trust in those who showed wisdom and skill, instead of those who flattered him then he would have been more successful.
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Unread postby Sam » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:13 pm

Another officer of Yuan Shao's that I think’s worthy of mention is Qu Yi. Although not largely mentioned in SGYY, Yi led Shao’s armies in the battle against Gongsun Zan at Jieqiao and heavily defeated Zan. Historically, he was not killed in the battle as SGYY portrays, but was rather killed by Yuan Shao himself for being a somewhat arrogant officer. Obviously, he isn't up there with Zhang He, Gao Lan, Wen Chou, Gao Gan and the like, but his achievements at Jieqiao show he was certainly a capable commander.
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Unread postby Yuan Benchu » Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:52 pm

Yes, I remember Gryyfin from Koei Warriors saying how underrated Qu/Ju Yi is. From what I've heard and from what've James just said, he seems quite the leader, and quite a good warrior. Maybe he would've caused Cao some trouble.
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