The Concept of Success in Modern Terms

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The Concept of Success in Modern Terms

Unread postby Harimau » Sun Aug 11, 2002 11:35 am

"Success" can be defined as many things. However, as many different jobs and occupations and possibilites for everyone grows in this modern world through education and equality, the concept of success has changed dramatically. One has noticed that success can now be divided roughly into two categories:

:arrow: Either success determined by what "society" thinks is success.(i.e a good occupation, wealth, prominence). Society's success often gains recognition and fame as their reward

:arrow: Or a personal success (i.e a person with moderate goals and achieves them). However, personal success tends to be ignored and unrecognised.

However, there is now increasing pressure from society and maybe even a brainwashing of ourselves to the point where personal success can be even forced or conformed to what "society" deems is "Success". (i.e Stars, pop stars, celebrityhood)

In the past, there were less influence of society on what people wishes to achieve. But now with advent of telecommunications and the sharing of ideas, people are now easily susceptible to the ideas of the majority.The Foremost example would be Public Testing. Society has given it such importance that people would have goals that would not be their own, but society's in order for them to gain acceptance.

If a person does not conform to what "Society" thinks is best for them, they will not be accepted as a member of that society. Is this not forcing them to give up their inviduality and uniqueness?? One example i can give is people who do not wish to work and live in our modern system, and lives a seclused life in the wilderness. And do not think that there are no people like that in the world. There are plenty, but "Society" will not allow them to be seen or heard. See no "Evil", Hear no "Evil", Speak no "Evil". Leading Societies will almost certainly blast those who do not conform to Society's standards and "norms" as evil. Example: America and the Muslim World. The way the American media potrays the Muslim world and its workings. They make the Muslim world seem "Evil" and full of "Terrorists". I say RUBBISH. The Muslim society is probably one of the most friendliest i know of. Why do they do it?? ELECTION. The administration has to appeal to simple Joe Blow who doesnt know a bit about Islam and hype it so much in order to get his votes.

Now my questions:

:?: Which do you consider best? Personal or Society's success?

:?: What do you consider Success? Wealth? Prominence? Permanence?

:?: (If you agree with me) Are the effects of society influencing the
concepts of personal success of youths by society a negative or positive thing?

:?: Do you agree with Society's Ways of Branding "Evil" On all things they do not know or understand merely for maybe election promises?

:?: How can we solve these problems of the world? Or are they just too ingrained in human nature that we cannot do so?
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Unread postby James » Sun Aug 11, 2002 1:17 pm

Very insightful Harimau, this is something that I have been thinking about for many years now. The average member of society thinks based of what they have learned and is not strong enough to unlearn the negative “facts” of their past.

Furthermore, the thing that bothers me most about humanity is the willingness of the average member to turn his or her back on everyone else for personal gain. Corporations function at the expense of the norm, the rich stay wealthy buy standing on the poor man’s back, and legality can be influenced and circumvented with money.

People are raised into a certain religion but almost never have the strength to question it and others choose to believe nothing for various reasons (although this is rarely a belief held to death). In the name of religion and God we go to war and kill each other, justify crimes, and commit the greatest atrocities of history.

Some people get very upset and concerned over what their clothing looks like, whether or not it matches, whether or not they fit in, whether or not they meet their friends standards, and whether or not they are “cool”. Hell, some people get violently offended by vulgar language. These things have almost no importance when weighed against self-confidence, knowledge, and identity, but people fail to see this. They think that knowledge, self-confidence, and identity come as a result of these things, but they spend the rest of their lives waiting. In order to think about that which is important a person must let go of that which does not matter.

… I’ll shut up, I could go at this for hours…

Harimau wrote::?: Which do you consider best? Personal or Society's success?

Personal success should come first, but in society the normal person’s goals are the same as their group of friends or their boss.

Harimau wrote::?: What do you consider Success? Wealth? Prominence? Permanence?

If I must choose one of the three I would say Permanence, but in the end none of them are the greatest factors of success in my eyes.

Harimau wrote::?: (If you agree with me) Are the effects of society influencing the
concepts of personal success of youths by society a negative or positive thing?

Negative. It is far too easy for a child to think and learn as a part of society, but few of them seem to be very good at thinking and learning for themselves.

Harimau wrote::?: Do you agree with Society's Ways of Branding "Evil" On all things they do not know or understand merely for maybe election promises?

No, it is naive.

Harimau wrote::?: How can we solve these problems of the world? Or are they just too ingrained in human nature that we cannot do so?

Most of the world’s problems (materialism, power, greed, etc.) will not be solved at any point in the near future (and giving them the chance to ever be solved assumes some drastic sociological evolution). The goals that can be solved are personal; changing society cannot be accomplished without a dictatorship (which cannot succeed through a corrupt generation).
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Re: The Concept of Success in Modern Terms

Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Sun Aug 11, 2002 5:48 pm

Harimau wrote:
:?: Which do you consider best? Personal or Society's success?


Personal, because being succesful will add to Society's succes in the long run. Progress starts with yourself.

Harimau wrote::?: What do you consider Success? Wealth? Prominence? Permanence?


Spiritual calm, abundancy in love, freedom of expression.

Harimau wrote::?: (If you agree with me) Are the effects of society influencing the
concepts of personal success of youths by society a negative or positive thing?


Negative, because society paints a rather distorted picture of what is important in one's life, and parents often encourage these fleeing thoughts.

Harimau wrote::?: Do you agree with Society's Ways of Branding "Evil" On all things they do not know or understand merely for maybe election promises?


No, because this leads to ignorance and judgemental masses.

Harimau wrote::?: How can we solve these problems of the world? Or are they just too ingrained in human nature that we cannot do so?


If I knew that, I would be God.
Society is going down so quickly the chance of it going up is..well...slim.

Zhuge Kongming wrote:In order to think about that which is important a person must let go of that which does not matter.


Very well spoken Captain.
Though this concept requires a mental fortitude that many lack, because they are not willing to put time and effort into something that complex.
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Re: The Concept of Success in Modern Terms

Unread postby Dennis » Mon Aug 12, 2002 2:53 am

Harimau wrote::?: Which do you consider best? Personal or Society's success?

Personal. I couldn't even care a fraction of an ounce less about what society thinks of my achievements. Society can suck it!"
Harimau wrote::?: What do you consider Success? Wealth? Prominence? Permanence?

Wealth is subjective, I think whenever people have made it to the last rung of Maslow's heirarchy of needs, and finally succeeds in spiritually fulfilling his/herself, they are successful.
Harimau wrote::?: (If you agree with me) Are the effects of society influencing the
concepts of personal success of youths by society a negative or positive thing?

Negative. Never trust society ot the media.
Harimau wrote::?: Do you agree with Society's Ways of Branding "Evil" On all things they do not know or understand merely for maybe election promises?
Evil is subjective.
Harimau wrote::?: How can we solve these problems of the world? Or are they just too ingrained in human nature that we cannot do so?

As long as man puts self-gain before empathy, we will be stuck in this circle of negativity.[/quote]
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Re: The Concept of Success in Modern Terms

Unread postby Mega Zarak » Mon Aug 12, 2002 5:04 am

:?: Which do you consider best? Personal or Society's success?

Personal definition of success would suit one best but may not be beneficial to society at large. Since I'm not a politician, I would go for personal success. :D

:?: What do you consider Success? Wealth? Prominence? Permanence?

Lide, I don't think many of us can actually look for self-actualisation needs (Maslow's last rung rite?) in our life and we may have multiple needs to satisfy at anytime. Anyway, IMO, success would be making positive contributions to society at large which influence or induce others to generates more of such contributions.

:?: (If you agree with me) Are the effects of society influencing the
concepts of personal success of youths by society a negative or positive thing?

Youths derive the notion of personal success from a lot of factors. Society itself is actually the general embodiment of all the interactions among different individuals and groups. Hence, the stimuli which a youth receives depends on which part or portion or strata of "society" the youth is in and that will influences his/her perceptions of various issues which in turn determine the way a youth would formulate his/her goals. Also, it depends on how a youth matures, the nature of the youth's character or his/her personality. IMO, this is not merely a socialogical problem/question but also a psychological/cognitive one.

:?: Do you agree with Society's Ways of Branding "Evil" On all things they do not know or understand merely for maybe election promises?

Again, it depends on which part of society one is refering to. Throughout human history, the general definition of evil remains largely unchanged but some of its sub-definitions are constantly mutated and adjusted to suit the needs of certain parties/people/evolving society. An invalid definition is likely to be ignored/phased out/replaced by a more valid one as time passes by. However, the drawback is that this process maybe too slow and certain wrong definitions may already be drilled into the heads of youths who are looking for answers in this domain. This problem can be partially alleviated in a free society whereby people are allowed to speak their mind and make changes if necessary.

:?: How can we solve these problems of the world? Or are they just too ingrained in human nature that we cannot do so?

Society's influence on any individual varies. We are part of human society once we are born and in no way can we get out of its influences. Many of our predecssors have succeeded in developing positive ideas that changes society for the better while many more (the masses?) have been victims of bad influences from society. However, some individuals need more guidance/influences than others and not all can formulate their own goals and objectives while making sure that they do not harm the rest of human society (at least). Hence, certain societal influences/forces maybe necessary to keep these people on track. However, too much of them may result in a negative impact on society itself which impedes the progress of society or even causes it to degenerate. Further to that, societal forces are generally of "broadcast" nature and everyone is subseptible to their influences. Hence, it is impossible to have any societal force that only generates positive influences for people in all levels of society with different individual personalities. The only way for society to progress and for all individuals to have generally acceptable influences from society is to create a society which adapts quickly and positively to the impact of its own societal forces on the individuals that make up the society. :D
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Re: The Concept of Success in Modern Terms

Unread postby Dennis » Mon Aug 12, 2002 5:28 am

Great Deer wrote: Lide, I don't think many of us can actually look for self-actualisation needs (Maslow's last rung rite?) in our life and we may have multiple needs to satisfy at anytime. Anyway, IMO, success would be making positive contributions to society at large which influence or induce others to generates more of such contributions.


Yes, it was his last rung.

I think lots of people have the potential to reach that 5th rung, I mean look at it in these terms.

Let's say the average american 30-year old Male, has food [nutrition] , a place to live [security], and a wife [love]. That's three, if that said person has a job he or she likes, and is recognised for it [esteem], then that is four. The last rung, is again fairly subjective, but I do believe a lot of people, more so than in the past are able to pursue the fifth rung.
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Unread postby Harimau » Mon Aug 12, 2002 10:05 am

Zhuge Kongming wrote:Very insightful Harimau, this is something that I have been thinking about for many years now. The average member of society thinks based of what they have learned and is not strong enough to unlearn the negative “facts” of their past.


Why thank you James.

Furthermore, the thing that bothers me most about humanity is the willingness of the average member to turn his or her back on everyone else for personal gain. Corporations function at the expense of the norm, the rich stay wealthy buy standing on the poor man’s back, and legality can be influenced and circumvented with money.


Thats why i really dont like giving power to the mob. True Democracy cannot work where the usual and average person is uneducated or ignorant of all the facts.
People are raised into a certain religion but almost never have the strength to question it and others choose to believe nothing for various reasons (although this is rarely a belief held to death). In the name of religion and God we go to war and kill each other, justify crimes, and commit the greatest atrocities of history.


E.G Crusaders, Jihad. 30 Years War.

Some people get very upset and concerned over what their clothing looks like, whether or not it matches, whether or not they fit in, whether or not they meet their friends standards, and whether or not they are “cool”. Hell, some people get violently offended by vulgar language. These things have almost no importance when weighed against self-confidence, knowledge, and identity, but people fail to see this. They think that knowledge, self-confidence, and identity come as a result of these things, but they spend the rest of their lives waiting. In order to think about that which is important a person must let go of that which does not matter.

… I’ll shut up, I could go at this for hours…


This is one of the things that disgust me about modern society. People have almost no more scruples these days. They have become so hyped up in fitting in that they have lost contact with most of their inviduality.

Most of the world’s problems (materialism, power, greed, etc.) will not be solved at any point in the near future (and giving them the chance to ever be solved assumes some drastic sociological evolution). The goals that can be solved are personal; changing society cannot be accomplished without a dictatorship (which cannot succeed through a corrupt generation).


Or a change in ideology, which is quite unlikely to happen without true free thought, and that is even suppressed to a certain degree in all countries, even in the supposed "Free World". I think Earth has lived in isolation in too long. Times like these make me wish that aliens would come so they can introduce us to new thoughts.
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Unread postby James » Mon Aug 12, 2002 10:28 am

Harimau wrote:Or a change in ideology, which is quite unlikely to happen without true free thought, and that is even suppressed to a certain degree in all countries, even in the supposed "Free World". I think Earth has lived in isolation in too long. Times like these make me wish that aliens would come so they can introduce us to new thoughts.

That is why I mention war. In order for change of this sort to come about without gradual advancement something major must come about (and war brings about great reform). The unpleasant part is the fact that war is not a healthy way to bring about change.

Free thought is being suppressed more and more around the world from what I have seen; I think there are some revolutions on the horizon in multiple nations. In the United States "freedom" is being reduced with each passing year and isn't the United States supposed to be the home of freedom?

I am not too sure about contact with outside races. Even if an enlightened race did come into contact with Earth, do you think they would attempt to help us reform society? Even if they did, how receptive do you think humanity would be?
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Unread postby Harimau » Mon Aug 12, 2002 10:34 am

Zhuge Kongming wrote:That is why I mention war. In order for change of this sort to come about without gradual advancement something major must come about (and war brings about great reform). The unpleasant part is the fact that war is not a healthy way to bring about change.


Well, a revolution may bring the same results with probably less consenquences. However, the problem with starting revolutions is to convince the majority that the ideology is right.
Free thought is being suppressed more and more around the world from what I have seen; I think there are some revolutions on the horizon in multiple nations. In the United States "freedom" is being reduced with each passing year and isn't the United States supposed to be the home of freedom?


Yeah im surprised they passed those legislations in restricting freedom. They should see that they are giving up their liberties and giving the government more powers which may induce it to turn against the people should they be given too much power. Power between the state and the people should be balanced, and this may disrupt that balance.
I am not too sure about contact with outside races. Even if an enlightened race did come into contact with Earth, do you think they would attempt to help us reform society? Even if they did, how receptive do you think humanity would be?


Were probably a little off topic but this is fun anyway. Judging from history, humans have a poor record of accepting strange and new things. One example is the way Europe and Africa. Heh IMO, aliens will probably be disgusted and leave almost immediately.
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Unread postby James » Mon Aug 12, 2002 10:49 am

Harimau wrote:Well, a revolution may bring the same results with probably less consenquences. However, the problem with starting revolutions is to convince the majority that the ideology is right.

And that, unfortunately, is where it takes an almost unreal leader to bring it into the realm of probability.

Harimau wrote:Yeah im surprised they passed those legislations in restricting freedom. They should see that they are giving up their liberties and giving the government more powers which may induce it to turn against the people should they be given too much power. Power between the state and the people should be balanced, and this may disrupt that balance.

I think it is mostly done to curry favor with other politicians and to strengthen themselves in the government. People serving in the government rarely remember that they are supposed to be serving the people. They take steps to increase their own wealth and increase the strength of the government, but seem blind to the consequences of their actions.

Harimau wrote:Were probably a little off topic but this is fun anyway. Judging from history, humans have a poor record of accepting strange and new things. One example is the way Europe and Africa. Heh IMO, aliens will probably be disgusted and leave almost immediately.

Who knows, I suppose it is possible that a race that travels the galaxy in an attempt to meet other races would anticipate such thinking and maybe work around it. I suppose it is just as likely that they want to harvest us for the next breeding season, but know knows. Heheh. Either way, they would have to accept aggression in order to get along with us, even if they "came in peace" they would be attacked by many.
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