The "What If" Thread

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The "What If" Thread

Unread postby PangDeGuy » Fri Jan 02, 2004 1:46 pm

This is the what if thread. I'm not sure if this would be allowed or not, but I think we can use this thread as a discussion thread to talk about the "what if's" of the Three Kingdoms, for example: "What if Liu Bei survived at Yiling?" And if we want to make this more organized, we can have one person who's knowledgable of the Three Kingdoms and post up a new "what if" topic about every week (would that be fair?). It's up to the mods to decide if this thread is worth it or not.
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Unread postby Zhuge Kongmingx » Sat Jan 03, 2004 1:33 am

Ok, try "what if Sun Ce and Zhou Yu lived longer?:

"What if Liu Shan was lost at Changban?"
"What if Sima Yi and Deng Ai died of ilness at a young age?"
"What if Zhou Tai did not save Sun Quan at Xuan?"
"What if Yuan Shu surrendered to Lu Bu and Lu Bu opposed Cao Cao with all of Yuan Shu's troops?"
"What if Dian Wei lived at Wan?"
"What if Cao Ang lived at Wan?"
"What if Guan Yu lived at Fan, and Lu Meng never took Jingzhou?"
"What if when Zhong Hui rebelled with Jiang Wei, they were not killed and attacked Wei/Jin with Wu?"
"What if Ma Su won at Jieting?"
"What if all 5 tigers lived longer?"
"What if Kongming did not perish at Wuzhang?"
"What if Wu won at He Fei?"
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Re: The "What If" Thread

Unread postby Chibichan » Sat Jan 03, 2004 9:09 am

PangDeGuy wrote:This is the what if thread. I'm not sure if this would be allowed or not, but I think we can use this thread as a discussion thread to talk about the "what if's" of the Three Kingdoms, for example: "What if Liu Bei survived at Yiling?" And if we want to make this more organized, we can have one person who's knowledgable of the Three Kingdoms and post up a new "what if" topic about every week (would that be fair?). It's up to the mods to decide if this thread is worth it or not.


Technically, Liu Bei did survive Yi Ling, but died a year later. Now, the correct thing to say would bw what if he won, and if he won, then Lu Xun would be in a BAD position when Liu Bei got his hands on him...
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Unread postby Banishing Blade » Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:07 pm

"what if Sun Ce and Zhou Yu lived longer?:


Difficult to say. . . I guess Wu's territory would've increased a tad more, mainly because Ce seemed more ambitious than Quan, and Ce was great at boosting morale, considering he fought in battles (IIRC).

Zhou Yu? *shrug* I don't know if it'd make that much of a difference.

"What if Liu Shan was lost at Changban?"


I'd sleep easier at night :lol:

Actually, I believe Shu may have had a greater chance. Had someone more capable become a Shu Emperor, such as Kongming, maybe Shu would've had a better chance. Then again, the goal of Shu was to restore the Han (not sure if this remained the goal later on), and I think the Han Empire was supposed to have a Liu as their ruler.

"What if Sima Yi and Deng Ai died of ilness at a young age?"


Well, for one, Wei would (most likely) not have become Jin. Also, Deng Ai was one of, if not the, most talented general of the era. Had he died, it would've been a great loss for Wei, and they may not have won as many campaigns against Jiang Wei as they originally had.

"What if Zhou Tai did not save Sun Quan at Xuan?"


Then they'd better hope Ce survived his assassination :D

"What if Yuan Shu surrendered to Lu Bu and Lu Bu opposed Cao Cao with all of Yuan Shu's troops?"


Lu Bu was a good fighter, but that's all. He'd fatigue his troops, and, accompanied by his indecisiveness, I doubt he'd get anywhere.

"What if Dian Wei lived at Wan?"


Not much of a difference, saved that Mengde would have two people to guard him, perhaps making it even more difficult for him to die (in battle).

"What if Cao Ang lived at Wan?"


Well, hopefully Mengde would be able to see that Pi was a better choice then Ang (as predecessor). Otherwise, Wei would not have accomplished as much as it had. Albeit, IIRC, it didn't gain much under Pi, either.

"What if Guan Yu lived at Fan, and Lu Meng never took Jingzhou?"


Then the tragedy of Yiling would not have happened, and perhaps Shu would've held their position for much longer, and perhaps even gained more territory in the north. Shu had the capable officers, but they lacked the able ruler (Shan).

"What if when Zhong Hui rebelled with Jiang Wei, they were not killed and attacked Wei/Jin with Wu?"


No real difference. The soldiers most likely wouldn't have supported them, and for Wu to turn to two rebel generals wouldn't be the wisest choice.

"What if Ma Su won at Jieting?"


I am near positive he would've screwed up another major battle. He was his own downfall.

"What if all 5 tigers lived longer?"


Shu would have better generals (with exceptions) to lead more campaigns. Zhang Fei and Huang Zhong were battle-hardened veterans; they could've captured northern Wei territories while facing off against the newer Wei officials.

"What if Kongming did not perish at Wuzhang?"


Shu would not have ended up so corrupt later on, and the government would've been more stable and, perhaps, more prosperous.

"What if Wu won at He Fei?"


Well, due to my lack of knowledge of city location's, I'm not entirely sure if it would've made a difference.[/quote]
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Unread postby PangDeGuy » Sun Jan 04, 2004 3:13 pm

Zhuge Kongmingx wrote:Ok, try "what if Sun Ce and Zhou Yu lived longer?:

"What if Liu Shan was lost at Changban?"
"What if Sima Yi and Deng Ai died of ilness at a young age?"
"What if Zhou Tai did not save Sun Quan at Xuan?"
"What if Yuan Shu surrendered to Lu Bu and Lu Bu opposed Cao Cao with all of Yuan Shu's troops?"
"What if Dian Wei lived at Wan?"
"What if Cao Ang lived at Wan?"
"What if Guan Yu lived at Fan, and Lu Meng never took Jingzhou?"
"What if when Zhong Hui rebelled with Jiang Wei, they were not killed and attacked Wei/Jin with Wu?"
"What if Ma Su won at Jieting?"
"What if all 5 tigers lived longer?"
"What if Kongming did not perish at Wuzhang?"
"What if Wu won at He Fei?"


I'll answer some of them, and maybe the others when I have more time.

For the second one:
Well, then Wei would've had no chance in the latter age, and Shu and Wu probably would've captured some important city like Changan. Then, either Shu and Wu would face off or they'd have mutual peace. If Shu faced off with Wu, it'd be a like a draw. They both have excellent positions, excellent generals, excellent strategists, etc.

For the third one:
Then Wu's kingdom would've crumbled.

For the fourth one:
Wouldn't make much of a difference. Yuan Shu wasn't worth a bone or something like that ;)

For the seventh one:
Then Yiling would've never happened, and then there wouldn't be strifes between Wu and Shu, and better yet Liu Shan might've not ascended the throne. Liu Feng wouldn't have been executed. The five tiger generals would still be together also. Big difference here.

I'll answer more later...
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What if....

Unread postby LordZhaoYunTheGreat » Sun Jan 11, 2004 1:24 am

liu bei,zhang fei and guan yu were not seperated and all went to yuan shao....would it make a difference at guan du???
who will get the red hare......
[Mod Edit (Kong Zhengshu): In the future (everyone), please make the subjects of your posts clear. There are about a million "What if..." threads, so that subject tells readers nothing about what they'll find within. It doesn't hurt to be a little clearer.]
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Unread postby Elven Fury » Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:10 am

Cao Cao would have kept Red Hare probably idk what would happen though i would say Yuan Shao may have had a chance since no one would have been able to take yan liang and wen chou but i would still say cao would win and keep the horse
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Unread postby Lu Wei » Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:37 am

Yan Liang would stay alive, and as a result so would Wen Chou. THis means Cao Cao would a have a much more depleted force when he makes it to Guandu (assuming Yan Liang and Wen Chou are eventually defeated by sheer numbers and force thrown at them, with heavy casualties to Cao's forces). With Yuan Shao's forces being strengthed by the brothers, all Yuan Shao has to do is order an all-out charge and their is a good chance Cao's forces will be swept away. From here, it is harder to speculate. Yuan Shao would be extremely angry at Sun Quan for refusing him aid, so it is highly likely that is where his next hammer stroke will be aimed at. Could Zhou Yu have pulled off a second, much earlier ChiBi without Liu Bei's help, without Jiang Dong and Jing fully pacified, and with Liu Biao their enemy right next to them? Maybe, maybe not.
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Unread postby Devilrai » Sun Jan 11, 2004 10:25 am

Cao Cao would have lost at Guan Du...thats what most people would say at first...heck I did, but Cao Cao would not have lost at Guan Du because Cao Cao is a much more smater person than Yuan Shao, don't get me wrong Yuan Shao was a good leader but not as a good leader as Cao Cao. Though Cao Cao would have had some problems dealing with the much larger force of Yuan Shao, but with Xiahou Dun, Zhang Liao, Xu Huang and many other...he would have won ether way. Thats my opinion.
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Unread postby Lu Wei » Sun Jan 11, 2004 5:45 pm

Zhang Liao and Xu Huang were both defeated by Wen Chou and Yan Liang.

Also, With Liu Bei's help, and his even more overwhelming number advantage, all Yuan Shao needed to do is order an all out charge against Cao's forces. What could Cao Cao possibly do? With Zhang Fei and Guan Yu leading forces along with Zhang He, Yan Liang, and Wen Chou (they would have been defeated, but not killed, and simply have retreated), what could Cao Cao hope to do?
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