Zhao Yun, Dian Wei or Zhou Tai-bravest of the brave

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Whose the bravest?

Zhao Yun
98
46%
Zhou Tai
38
18%
Dian Wei
79
37%
 
Total votes : 215

Unread postby Sam » Tue Oct 14, 2003 10:02 am

Dian_Wei wrote:Zhao Yun didnt get injured, it would have said so in the book. Im not saying he didnt rescue Liu Chan, but he didnt fight in the heat of battle all alone. No general in his right mind would go out into the middle of hundreds of thousands of enemy soldiers to save a baby.


You cannot use SGYY as a source of factual information. If you find me a passage within SGZ stating Zhao Yun didn't get injured, then please share it with us, because it seems you are making all this up. And again, how do you know he didn't fight in the heat of battle alone? What are your sources other than your own logic?

Dian_Wei wrote:What evidence is there that Zhao Yun even fought a single person. He suffered no injuries. Zhou Tai and Dian Wei actually fought people and there injuries prove it. There acts also saved their leaders life and are recorded with great accuracy.


This is ridiculous. You cannot debate by making things up, because you have absolutely no evidence to back up what you say. There is [b]no[b/] evidence proving Zhao Yun didn't fight at Chang Ban, nor is there any proving he didn't get injured. You cannot just assume these things. And Zhao Yun's act saved Liu Shan's life, just as Zhou Tai’s saved Sun Quan’s, and Dian Wei’s Cao Cao.

Dian_Wei wrote:Dian Wei saved Cao Cao twice in battle against Lu bu. Do you recall the time Dian threw ten battle axes at enemy soldiers to protect Cao. And the time he had to kill a path for Cao to escape in another battle against Bu.


Oh yeah, I do - in SGYY, but not in SGZ.

Dian_Wei wrote:I said all Zhao Yuns victories were because of trickery. What i mean by this is he is overly glorified. He performs one brave act but then all his attacks in battle were sneak attacks or somthing like that. He rarely charged upon the enemy and only did so when someone else was planning a raid or ambush. Im not saying that is not part of war, but if he was so brave wouldnt he haved charged wei lines more.


Zhao Yun's victories weren't all because of trickery, and even if they were, that would mean jack. War is not won by simply charging enemy lines - to do so would only prove one's rashness.

Dian_Wei wrote:you want to know what i mean by no one is afraid of Zhao Yuns corpse, here it is. When Dian Wei died, the other soldiers were so scared by him alive they were afraid to pass through the gate he was defending, even though he was a lifeless corpse.


I don't recall anything in SGZ stating those soldiers were indeed afraid of Dian Wei's lifeless corpse. Regardless, how can you compare an OAP's corpse to that of a general in his prime?

Dian_Wei wrote:He did in fact ride into battle only to get through. If he would have stayed and fought rather than just charge right through it would be different.


Courage does not take place during the heat of battle, but before it. For example, if you were told a hundred demons were in a single room, you would hesitate to go into that room, no? However, if you decided to open the door to that room, that would take a hell of a lot of courage. If, however, there were no demons in that room, you would not have to fight, but you had already proven your courage by opening that door. Zhao Yun's saving Liu Shan at Chang Ban is very similar.

Dian_Wei wrote:Zhao Yuns act is nowhere near as well documented as Dian Weis. The whole conversation between Zhao and Liu Beis wife was probably made up. I hate to repeat myself once again, but Zhao did indeed have full battle armor and two very well crafted weapons. And yes Zhou Tai was basically streaking when he rescued Sun Quan, he had no clothing or armor at all, it was after all the middle of the night and it was supposedly very humid. Dian Wei also was fighting well over 100 men and he had to eventually use his enemies bodies as weapons because his weapons were stolen and he was using a shoddy infantry sword. Dian Wei was a very very strong man, and if you read the section of his death you will know that he in fact used enemies bodies as weapons, this is also stated in SGZ if you need further proof. Zhao Yun in SGZ isnt nearly as descriptive, so i figure that Luo exaggerated these aspects to further glorify a man in Shu, because he was biased to Liu Beis plight for the Han


All of this is taking directly from SGYY, not SGZ. If you want to get into an historical debate, then use historical facts. If not, stop wasting my time.
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Unread postby Morg » Tue Oct 14, 2003 10:28 am

Dian_Wei wrote:
Morg wrote:
Dian_Wei wrote:Dian Wei was a very very strong man, and if you read the section of his death you will know that he in fact used enemies bodies as weapons, this is also stated in SGZ if you need further proof.

No it isn't, it is stated in SGZ that he killed 2 men with his bare hands but it does not say that he used them for weapons.


That is a different part, before he served Cao cao, he killed those two men and hid in the mountains and wrestled tigers. The time he used his enemies bodies as weapons was when he was protecting Cao cao against Zhang xiu and the sword he was using broke, rendering it useless. He then picked up enemy bodies, dead and alive, and started swinging their bodies and throwing them at other enemies. The enemies were so scared at this display of strength that they fell back and started shooting arrows at him until he died. Then the men would not resume the attack because they were so scared of Dian Wei alive that they were scared of him dead also.

Did you miss my post about the differences between SGYY and SGZ completely? Just in case, here it is again:
http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?p=128572#128572

Dian Wei's death did not HISTORICALLY feature breaking swords or swinging dead people as clubs. Historically Dian Wei fought with his own twin halberds but at one point...here's the direct quote from his SGZ bio as translated by Jiuwan:
Jiuwan wrote:[Dian] Wei held onto two traitors underneath his arms, killing them.

So he killed 2 men with his bare hands. There is no mention of him using them as clubs.

Furthermore, they did not kill him with arrows, it was his injuries that caught up with him. The soldiers were indeed frightened of Dian Wei and did not take his head as they normally would have, they left his body where it fell.

You claim to have read Dian Wei's SGZ bio but you obviously haven't, so here it is:
http://www.3kingdoms.net/forum/showthre ... post176188
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Unread postby Gan Ning 27 » Tue Oct 14, 2003 4:41 pm

In order of my opinion:

1) Dian Wei
2) Zhou Tai
3) Zhao Yun

Until I get confirmation on what exactly occured at Chang Ban, I rank Zhou Tai higher. And of course, to fight bare-handed against an entire army with your body pierced by arrows.....come on, no contest who wins!
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Unread postby Shu whu shang » Tue Oct 14, 2003 8:22 pm

What did does three do that was brave?
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Unread postby Gan Ning 27 » Tue Oct 14, 2003 8:27 pm

Shu whu shang wrote:What did does three do that was brave?


Dian Wei fought against Zhang Xiu's entire army, injured, alone, and without his prized weapons. That allowed Cao Cao to escape from the ambush at Wan, though Dian Wei died.

Zhou Tai charged into an ambush by Zhang Liao, I believe. He defended Sun Quan during the retreat, and received I believe 17 wounds all over his body for it.

Zhao Yun allegedly charged into Cao Cao's vast army at Chang Ban, slaying several lesser officers and rescuing the infant Liu Shan from death or imprisonment.
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Unread postby Jiang Zhi » Tue Oct 14, 2003 11:26 pm

Zhao Yun also:

- Saved Huang Zhong the same way he saved Liu Chan in the battle of Han Zhong
- Slew 5 generals in one go
- Broke through the Eight Gates formation with only 500 men
- Heroic act at Changban (that's a given)
- Killed Zhu Ran in a duel at Yiling
- Has dueled Li Dian, Zhang He and a few others (i cannot recall)
- Fought Jiang Wei to a stand still

Zhou Tai has:

- Fought in Battle of Chibi and the battles prior (killed Zhang Yun by boarding other ship)
- Fought in Battle of Hefei (saving Sun Quan and Xu Sheng scenario)
- Fought in the Battle of Yiling

Dian Wei has:

- Protected Cao Cao at Wan Castle and only done that...if he is so powerful, why didn't Cao Cao use him as a duelist against Wen Chou or Yan Liang? (he was serving him at that time, wasn't he?)
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Unread postby waynethegame » Wed Oct 15, 2003 12:53 am

Jiang Zhi wrote:Dian Wei has:

- Protected Cao Cao at Wan Castle and only done that...if he is so powerful, why didn't Cao Cao use him as a duelist against Wen Chou or Yan Liang? (he was serving him at that time, wasn't he?)


Didn't Wan Castle happen before that, so Dian Wei would be dead by then?
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Unread postby Jon » Wed Oct 15, 2003 12:56 am

Dian Wei died in 197(or 198, please clarify), and Cao Cao wasn't even at war with Yuan Shao at that point, so no he wasn't alive :/
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Unread postby Rurouni Kenshin » Wed Oct 15, 2003 12:56 am

waynethegame wrote:
Jiang Zhi wrote:Dian Wei has:

- Protected Cao Cao at Wan Castle and only done that...if he is so powerful, why didn't Cao Cao use him as a duelist against Wen Chou or Yan Liang? (he was serving him at that time, wasn't he?)


Didn't Wan Castle happen before that, so Dian Wei would be dead by then?


Yeah Dian Wei is dead before the battle at Guan Du. He's actually been dead for quite a while.
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Unread postby Jiang Zhi » Wed Oct 15, 2003 2:29 am

>_< oops, my bad......bah, but Cao Cao also had Xu Zhu at Guandu ;)

Anyway, Dian Wei only fought in one battle.....that doesn't prove his ability. Anyway, all three of them did their duties as body guards!
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