Zhao Yun, Dian Wei or Zhou Tai-bravest of the brave

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Whose the bravest?

Zhao Yun
98
46%
Zhou Tai
38
18%
Dian Wei
79
37%
 
Total votes : 215

Unread postby Andrew » Mon Oct 13, 2003 2:20 am

I agree, with you DynastyIain, it was somewhat Sun Quan's fault. Zhao Yun charged into a army of 1 million without second though alone as well. Zhao Tai fought with an army of 300-400 thousand, as well there was still probably the odd Wu solider fighting.
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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Mon Oct 13, 2003 3:23 am

Andrew wrote:I agree, with you DynastyIain, it was somewhat Sun Quan's fault. Zhao Yun charged into a army of 1 million without second though alone as well. Zhao Tai fought with an army of 300-400 thousand, as well there was still probably the odd Wu solider fighting.


Those numbers are very very overly exaggerated. Zhao Yun charged through a contingent of Weis army, not into the heat of battle. He didnt fight for his act of bravery he ran to rescue someone. He probably only killed a few men. Zhou Tais rescue was alone also, and he had nothing on at all. Dian wei fought with an infantrymens sword, then when it broke he used human bodies as a weapon, only to be killed by cowards who shot at him with bows. Zhao Yuns act would have been brave if there was proof that he actually fought against people. the basis of his act is brave, but there is no proof how many he fought, and how many were with him. He could have been charging through a wei contingent of a hundred, with Shu horsemen supporting him. there is not enough proof for it to be called a brave act, for all we know he could have been riding through an empty field. Zhou Tai and Dian Weis was much more dangerous. They actually suffered injuries or death. Just because there arent mentioned as much as Zhao doesnt mean that one act is more significant than another. Each act had an effect on history, and it happened to be that Zhao Yuns act was a negative one, saving the person who ruined Shu, while Dian wei and Zhou tai saved the most powerful leader of their empire.

To put it simply Zhao ran from the fight to save a baby who would grow up to ruin his kingdom, Dian Wei and Zhou Tai saved their leaders who would led their kingdoms to greatness by fighting for their leader. Also neither Zhou or dian had armor and they still fought. Zhao was armed with two weapons, and had a full suit of armor on and he had a horse. His goal was to escape from the fighting, the others goal was to protect someone by fighting.
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Zhao Yun

Unread postby Iain » Mon Oct 13, 2003 8:34 am

Dian_Wei wrote:
Andrew wrote:I agree, with you DynastyIain, it was somewhat Sun Quan's fault. Zhao Yun charged into a army of 1 million without second though alone as well. Zhao Tai fought with an army of 300-400 thousand, as well there was still probably the odd Wu solider fighting.


Those numbers are very very overly exaggerated.
Excuse me for asking,but how the heck do you know Its well documented in the book just like your heroboy Dian Wei's drunken gambit was. Why dont you provide proof if you feel the information is in error!!
Dian_Wei wrote: Zhao Yun charged through a contingent of Weis army, not into the heat of battle.
Its the same thing; he was overun and behind enemy lines.
Dian_Wei wrote: He didnt fight for his act of bravery he ran to rescue someone. He probably only killed a few men.
Is it not brave to rescue a helpless baby;
, and then protect that child as he rides through waves of Wei troops?
Dian_Wei wrote: Zhou Tais rescue was alone also, and he had nothing on at all.
What do you mean he was streaking? Seriously I believe he had the same basic armour someone like Zhao Yun would have had.Anyway I never said Zhou Tai wasnt brave; Its just his boss that stupid getting in so deep.
Dian_Wei wrote: Dian wei fought with an infantrymens sword, then when it broke he used human bodies as a weapon, only to be killed by cowards who shot at him with bows.
Well I dunno that sounds a bit overexagerated to me; For all you know it was a couple drunks he fought and one archer that nailed him.
Dian_Wei wrote: Zhao Yuns act would have been brave if there was proof that he actually fought against people.
How about Cao Cao as an eyewitness; When he found out who it was charging through his ranks like a hot knife through butter he instructed his officers to capture Zhao Yun instead. So Cao Cao admired his skill even if you dont.
Dian_Wei wrote: Each act had an effect on history, and it happened to be that Zhao Yuns act was a negative one, saving the person who ruined Shu, while Dian wei and Zhou tai saved the most powerful leader of their empire.
Well hindsight always is 20/20; Zhao Yun still did a brave thing and Zhou Tai saved a leader that is an adult and should know better than to dive deep into battle.
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Unread postby Ma Zhi Xuan » Mon Oct 13, 2003 5:56 pm

Dian_Wei wrote:
Andrew wrote:I agree, with you DynastyIain, it was somewhat Sun Quan's fault. Zhao Yun charged into a army of 1 million without second though alone as well. Zhao Tai fought with an army of 300-400 thousand, as well there was still probably the odd Wu solider fighting.


Those numbers are very very overly exaggerated. Zhao Yun charged through a contingent of Weis army, not into the heat of battle. He didnt fight for his act of bravery he ran to rescue someone. He probably only killed a few men. Zhou Tais rescue was alone also, and he had nothing on at all. Dian wei fought with an infantrymens sword, then when it broke he used human bodies as a weapon, only to be killed by cowards who shot at him with bows. Zhao Yuns act would have been brave if there was proof that he actually fought against people. the basis of his act is brave, but there is no proof how many he fought, and how many were with him. He could have been charging through a wei contingent of a hundred, with Shu horsemen supporting him. there is not enough proof for it to be called a brave act, for all we know he could have been riding through an empty field. Zhou Tai and Dian Weis was much more dangerous. They actually suffered injuries or death. Just because there arent mentioned as much as Zhao doesnt mean that one act is more significant than another. Each act had an effect on history, and it happened to be that Zhao Yuns act was a negative one, saving the person who ruined Shu, while Dian wei and Zhou tai saved the most powerful leader of their empire.

To put it simply Zhao ran from the fight to save a baby who would grow up to ruin his kingdom, Dian Wei and Zhou Tai saved their leaders who would led their kingdoms to greatness by fighting for their leader. Also neither Zhou or dian had armor and they still fought. Zhao was armed with two weapons, and had a full suit of armor on and he had a horse. His goal was to escape from the fighting, the others goal was to protect someone by fighting.


Charging behind enemy lines, is alot more dangerous than charging into battle because you've got your own to battle with you as well, so you don't have to battle all the enemy's men because your own will keep some pre-occupied.
The numbers of the men Zhao charged were not recorded in history so theoretically the enemies numbers could be more than what Luo Guanzhong portrayed.
Zhao Yun had no idea that Liu Shan would turn out to be a terrible leader, it wasn't his fault that he did, it was probaly the teachings he was given and how they affected his intelligence, and charging behind enemy lines is quite dangerous regardless if there wasn't a million of Cao Cao's men in his way, doing that to rescue your lords child and wife when he was forced to abandon them is very loyal and brave in my opinion.
In Dian Wei's position he was very brave indeed give your own life for your lords, but if he was so strong and brave, why were the men who shot him cowards if they were only going to be killed anyway?.

To put it simply, Zhao hurried into the enemy array to rescue a helpless child and wife, to preserve his lords son and heir. Zhou Tai went to rescue Sun Quan who should have known his own value and actually went into battle, but Sun Quan was on a horse and easy to look out for, since they were only on a boat. Dian Wei fought bravley for his lords safety and preservence only his life was taken in the process.
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Unread postby Sam » Mon Oct 13, 2003 8:04 pm

Dian_Wei wrote:There is no proof that Zhao actually performed the act he was suppose to have performed. Someone said that there is no proof of how many people were with or against Zhao. He could ahve been riding without anyone to challenge him. He didnt even get injured. If there were that many people fighting him dont you think that someone would think, this guy is our enemy but he is riding a horse and killing people left and right and he is alone, lets just shoot him with arrows.


Why is it that everyone seems to be ignoring their opponents points in debates nowadays? Could you not try to counter what I have said instead of totally ignoring my points and repeating yourself? Regardless, Zhao Yun did indeed protect and save Liu Shan - that was his set task, so how is it that he did not perform it? Also, could you share your evidence proving Zhao Yun didn't get injured?

Dian_Wei wrote:Zhou Tai and Dian weis act actually have undisputable evidence they happened. They both had severe injuries and Dian Wei died because of it. Once again Zhao also inadvertedly caused the end of Shu, and he also continually brags about this event so much it makes me sick. Zhou Tai never bragged about savin Sun Quan. By bragging constantly it takes credibility away from Zhao.


Excuse me? How can you say there is undisputed evidence that Zhou Tai's and Dian Wei's accomplishments occurred, while there is none proving Zhao Yun's did? The fact of the matter is Zhao Yun did indeed go straight into enemy territory, where for all he knew, thousands could have been awaiting him. There is "undisputed evidence" that Zhao Yun saved Liu Shan. Zhao Yun's "inadvertently causing the end of Shu" has absolutely nothing to do with his accomplishment. And again, where have you found evidence stating Zhao Yun "bragged" about his accomplishment at Chang Ban?

Dian_Wei wrote:He also had no other great acts beside this one. Dian Wei saved Caos life more than once and he gets credit just for the last time.


Oh really? Well, I am only aware of the one time. Care to enlighten me?

Dian_Wei wrote:Also Dian Wei was much more feared than Zhao ever was. No one was afraid of Zhao Yuns corpse. Zhao Yun never used human bodys as a weapon.


What the hell does that mean? Who would be afraid of a 71 year old corpse? And when did Zhao Yun need to use human body's as a weapon?

Dian_Wei wrote:Zhao Yun was a joke in my opinion. All his victories on the field were because of trickery and someone elses plotting.


Where are you getting all this? How were all his victories due to trickery and plotting, and even if they all were (which they were not), is that not part of war-strategy?

Dian_Wei wrote: He never accomplished any more great acts of bravery after this one act, that he was ordered to do/ Dian Wei and Zhou tais acts were totally selfless and they chose to put their lives on the line and fight for their leader. Zhao Yun rode a horse so he could escape from battle.


Oh God, that tops it off. How can you say Zhao Yun didn't put his life on the line, and how the hell can you say he rode away from battle when he in fact rode into battle?
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Unread postby Morg » Mon Oct 13, 2003 9:48 pm

Dian_Wei wrote:Those numbers are very very overly exaggerated. Zhao Yun charged through a contingent of Weis army, not into the heat of battle. He didnt fight for his act of bravery he ran to rescue someone. He probably only killed a few men. Zhou Tais rescue was alone also, and he had nothing on at all. Dian wei fought with an infantrymens sword, then when it broke he used human bodies as a weapon, only to be killed by cowards who shot at him with bows.

Okay, are we debating SGZ or SGYY here as this seems to be once again a mix of the 2?

Zhao Yun SGYY: Zhao Yun goes back into Wei territory, kills loads of soldiers and generals, steals the sword from Xiahou En and then rejoins Lei Bei.

Zhao Yun SGZ: Zhao Yun seemed to simply escort and bodyguard Liu Bei's family. No mention of going back into Wei territory. However, other bios do mention his return into Wei territory strangely...

Dian Wei SGYY: As you have said on several occasions, Dian Wei fights with an infantry sword until it broke and then used his enemies as weapons until he is felled by archers. He had killed 50 men and held the gate until Cao Cao escaped.

Dian Wei SGZ: Dian Wei fights alongside 10 other bodyguards with his own twin halberds but the enemy get in through the other gates (Cao Cao has already escaped) and overwhelm them. Dian Wei kills 10 men and then kills "numerous men" before succumbing to his wounds.

So, which set of deeds do you want to debate? We can go with the ultra valiant spiced up novelised versions or we can debate the historical events.


Also neither Zhou or dian had armor and they still fought.

Zhou Tai would have been wearing armour unless he was feeling suicidal that day. Dian Wei would have probably been wearing light armour too historical, although according to the novel he was probably in his pyjamas and slippers :D
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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Mon Oct 13, 2003 10:03 pm

Limitless Trust wrote:
Dian_Wei wrote:There is no proof that Zhao actually performed the act he was suppose to have performed. Someone said that there is no proof of how many people were with or against Zhao. He could ahve been riding without anyone to challenge him. He didnt even get injured. If there were that many people fighting him dont you think that someone would think, this guy is our enemy but he is riding a horse and killing people left and right and he is alone, lets just shoot him with arrows.


Why is it that everyone seems to be ignoring their opponents points in debates nowadays? Could you not try to counter what I have said instead of totally ignoring my points and repeating yourself? Regardless, Zhao Yun did indeed protect and save Liu Shan - that was his set task, so how is it that he did not perform it? Also, could you share your evidence proving Zhao Yun didn't get injured?

Dian_Wei wrote:Zhou Tai and Dian weis act actually have undisputable evidence they happened. They both had severe injuries and Dian Wei died because of it. Once again Zhao also inadvertedly caused the end of Shu, and he also continually brags about this event so much it makes me sick. Zhou Tai never bragged about savin Sun Quan. By bragging constantly it takes credibility away from Zhao.


Excuse me? How can you say there is undisputed evidence that Zhou Tai's and Dian Wei's accomplishments occurred, while there is none proving Zhao Yun's did? The fact of the matter is Zhao Yun did indeed go straight into enemy territory, where for all he knew, thousands could have been awaiting him. There is "undisputed evidence" that Zhao Yun saved Liu Shan. Zhao Yun's "inadvertently causing the end of Shu" has absolutely nothing to do with his accomplishment. And again, where have you found evidence stating Zhao Yun "bragged" about his accomplishment at Chang Ban?

Dian_Wei wrote:He also had no other great acts beside this one. Dian Wei saved Caos life more than once and he gets credit just for the last time.


Oh really? Well, I am only aware of the one time. Care to enlighten me?

Dian_Wei wrote:Also Dian Wei was much more feared than Zhao ever was. No one was afraid of Zhao Yuns corpse. Zhao Yun never used human bodys as a weapon.


What the hell does that mean? Who would be afraid of a 71 year old corpse? And when did Zhao Yun need to use human body's as a weapon?

Dian_Wei wrote:Zhao Yun was a joke in my opinion. All his victories on the field were because of trickery and someone elses plotting.


Where are you getting all this? How were all his victories due to trickery and plotting, and even if they all were (which they were not), is that not part of war-strategy?

Dian_Wei wrote: He never accomplished any more great acts of bravery after this one act, that he was ordered to do/ Dian Wei and Zhou tais acts were totally selfless and they chose to put their lives on the line and fight for their leader. Zhao Yun rode a horse so he could escape from battle.


Oh God, that tops it off. How can you say Zhao Yun didn't put his life on the line, and how the hell can you say he rode away from battle when he in fact rode into battle?


Zhao Yun didnt get injured, it would have said so in the book. Im not saying he didnt rescue Liu Chan, but he didnt fight in the heat of battle all alone. No general in his right mind would go out into the middle of hundreds of thousands of enemy soldiers to save a baby.

What evidence is there that Zhao Yun even fought a single person. He suffered no injuries. Zhou Tai and Dian Wei actually fought people and there injuries prove it. There acts also saved their leaders life and are recorded with great accuracy.

Dian Wei saved Cao Cao twice in battle against Lu bu. Do you recall the time Dian threw ten battle axes at enemy soldiers to protect Cao. And the time he had to kill a path for Cao to escape in another battle against Bu.

I said all Zhao Yuns victories were because of trickery. What i mean by this is he is overly glorified. He performs one brave act but then all his attacks in battle were sneak attacks or somthing like that. He rarely charged upon the enemy and only did so when someone else was planning a raid or ambush. Im not saying that is not part of war, but if he was so brave wouldnt he haved charged wei lines more.

you want to know what i mean by no one is afraid of Zhao Yuns corpse, here it is. When Dian Wei died, the other soldiers were so scared by him alive they were afraid to pass through the gate he was defending, even though he was a lifeless corpse.

He did in fact ride into battle only to get through. If he would have stayed and fought rather than just charge right through it would be different.

Zhao Yuns act is nowhere near as well documented as Dian Weis. The whole conversation between Zhao and Liu Beis wife was probably made up. I hate to repeat myself once again, but Zhao did indeed have full battle armor and two very well crafted weapons. And yes Zhou Tai was basically streaking when he rescued Sun Quan, he had no clothing or armor at all, it was after all the middle of the night and it was supposedly very humid. Dian Wei also was fighting well over 100 men and he had to eventually use his enemies bodies as weapons because his weapons were stolen and he was using a shoddy infantry sword. Dian Wei was a very very strong man, and if you read the section of his death you will know that he in fact used enemies bodies as weapons, this is also stated in SGZ if you need further proof. Zhao Yun in SGZ isnt nearly as descriptive, so i figure that Luo exaggerated these aspects to further glorify a man in Shu, because he was biased to Liu Beis plight for the Han
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Unread postby Morg » Mon Oct 13, 2003 11:17 pm

Dian_Wei wrote:Dian Wei was a very very strong man, and if you read the section of his death you will know that he in fact used enemies bodies as weapons, this is also stated in SGZ if you need further proof.

No it isn't, it is stated in SGZ that he killed 2 men with his bare hands but it does not say that he used them for weapons.
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Unread postby Zhilong » Mon Oct 13, 2003 11:45 pm

He rarely charged upon the enemy and only did so when someone else was planning a raid or ambush.

He was vanguard with Deng Zhi in a Northern Campaign.

This topic is about bravery not, necessarily charging.

Im not saying that is not part of war, but if he was so brave wouldnt he haved charged wei lines more.

There is a fine line between bravery & recklessness.
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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Tue Oct 14, 2003 2:08 am

Morg wrote:
Dian_Wei wrote:Dian Wei was a very very strong man, and if you read the section of his death you will know that he in fact used enemies bodies as weapons, this is also stated in SGZ if you need further proof.

No it isn't, it is stated in SGZ that he killed 2 men with his bare hands but it does not say that he used them for weapons.


That is a different part, before he served Cao cao, he killed those two men and hid in the mountains and wrestled tigers. The time he used his enemies bodies as weapons was when he was protecting Cao cao against Zhang xiu and the sword he was using broke, rendering it useless. He then picked up enemy bodies, dead and alive, and started swinging their bodies and throwing them at other enemies. The enemies were so scared at this display of strength that they fell back and started shooting arrows at him until he died. Then the men would not resume the attack because they were so scared of Dian Wei alive that they were scared of him dead also.
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