The Permanent "I’m Leaving/Back Thread"

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Re: The Permanent "I’m Leaving/Back Thread"

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:14 am

Welcome back PeanutButterToast! Glad you’ve returned - I enjoyed your presence on the board previously :).

I had a great time in Uganda and am now having a holiday in Dubai! I get back Friday so will return then! Only popped in because I got an exciting notification from this thread!
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Re: The Permanent "I’m Leaving/Back Thread"

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:44 am

Enjoy your holiday, glad Uganda went really well
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Re: The Permanent "I’m Leaving/Back Thread"

Unread postby PeanutButterToast » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:38 pm

Have fun in Dubai!
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Re: The Permanent "I’m Leaving/Back Thread"

Unread postby Jordan » Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:05 am

I forgot my password and thought I had registered this account on an email address that I have since lost. So I kinda stopped coming here...for years. Uh well, here I am. I'm back!

Funnily enough, I actually recently emailed Dr. Rafe de Crespigny about Zheng Jiang, and today I got a response! It was exciting!
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Re: The Permanent "I’m Leaving/Back Thread"

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:09 am

Very welcome back Jordan, glad you found your way back. Hope life has treated you well?

Glad you got a response, De Crespigny is such a friendly helpful figure
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Re: The Permanent "I’m Leaving/Back Thread"

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:06 am

I landed back in the UK late last night so I'm back! That is for a week or two before I go to the Lake District for my annual summer camps - I'm leading it this year rather than being part of the team! When I'm back from there I'll kick start the reading group off again!

PeanutButterToast wrote:Have fun in Dubai!


Thank you!

While in Dubai I started re-reading RoTK, I was going to do it a year or two ago but only got a few words in. I can't remember the last time I actually read it - must be half a decade or more! I'm up too chapter 30 and I've already got some observations I'm gonna make other the next few days. One thing that did really strike me though was that I'm older than Sun Ce was when he died :(.

The discord group have already read this but I just wanted to share something about my incredible Christian brothers and sisters in Uganda. The Anglican church there is poor and so training funds only covers those training. Therefore families are left at home, for months at a time with no financial stability. Then when they finish training they'll be paid a pittance (basically take a small cut from the offering plate) and will probably be covering 5 or 6 churches each a days hike apart. They'll spend much of their time travelling between them and have no means of transport but walking. With all of that in mind it's easy to see why so many preach prosperity gospel and tell their congregations that if they give them lots of money they'll be blessed. The people we meet though were dead set against that practise and were regularly requesting their Bishops send them to the hardest parishes where they can do the most good. They were just incredible and a real challenge to me as I think about life after training.

Sorry for the sermon.

Jordan wrote:I forgot my password and thought I had registered this account on an email address that I have since lost. So I kinda stopped coming here...for years. Uh well, here I am. I'm back!

Funnily enough, I actually recently emailed Dr. Rafe de Crespigny about Zheng Jiang, and today I got a response! It was exciting!


And I thought I scared you off by asking too many questions about the Wuhuan! :lol: What did he say?
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Re: The Permanent "I’m Leaving/Back Thread"

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:24 am

Hope summer camp goes well and you get some rest before then. Maybe give book club a week heads up so they can reread if they wish?

Glad your enjoying the novel again (curse you Sun Ce and midlife crises causing :wink: ) and Uganda gave you food for thought
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Re: The Permanent "I’m Leaving/Back Thread"

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:36 am

Thanks Dong :D

Good thought on the heads up - will do so!
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Re: The Permanent "I’m Leaving/Back Thread"

Unread postby Jordan » Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:05 am

He explained his rationale for the two different explanations about Zheng Jiang. I was having a friendly discussion with somebody else about whether Zheng Jiang was fictional or historical. The other individual believed it to be a certainty that Zheng Jiang was actually two different people, Zheng and Jiang, who were minor participants in a rebellion. The person I was debating with was saying that CA's interpretation was complete fanfiction. Dr. Rafe de Crespigny generously provided the earliest extant text where this character, or group of characters, appear. He explained that one of the characters in the text can indicate a plural, but read as a whole the passage could suggest either Zheng and Jiang or Zheng Jiang and [her] group. The text can be interpreted in different ways and so it is not certain whether this was one person or two. He said that Creative Assembly wanted it to be one person because they wanted the faction to have a single leader. They did give themselves something of an out by also having another female character in the faction at the start.

His own Biographical Dictionary lists both interpretations. The passage which talks about them has some supernatural elements in it though. Zhou Xuan was an interpreter of dreams and the Administrator Yang Pei supposedly had a dream about snakes with feet. Zhou Xuan interpreted snakes with feet as unnatural and foreshadowed it indicated a rebellion by women, and then soon after the revolt involving Zheng and Jiang or Zheng Jiang occurred. When supernatural elements are introduced, it's a bit of a red flag for me in history texts, but it's also hard for me to determine where to draw a line. Maybe all of this is true, as it's just an alleged dream rather than actual supernatural phenomena. It's not entirely farfetched that all of the story could be true. In my opinion, it's also possible that maybe the part about a dream of snakes and feet was written for didactic purposes to explain why the actual historical female rebels were unnatural. Maybe the entire story is made up and none of this happened. I'm reticent to disregard it entirely though because it all appears in SGZ, so at least there is a textual historical basis for it. I just have a slight amount of skepticism, if that makes any sense.

Unrelated to my discussion with Dr. Rafe de Crespigny, but in the process of typing this up, I also realized a few other things. Yang Pei was the administrator of Le'an, which maps show is in Qing province a bit inland on the Shandong peninsula. In Total War Three Kingdoms, Zheng Jiang begins with an officer named Congqian. Congqian is probably an invented name given its meaning related to money, but the man who called himself Congqian was another bandit operating in the Shandong peninsula, albeit around Donglai closer to the water. I'm not sure if he was operating at the same time as Zheng Jiang or Zheng and Jiang, but I kind of doubt it. However, he is at least historical and fits with the theme of bandits.

There are a few things that are misplaced with respect to Zheng Jiang or Zheng and Jiang and their faction. One is the location. They were around Shandong and thus Kong Rong's starting position rather than Zhang Yan's. The other is the time period. They were operating later from the game's start date, while Congqian was suppressed around 200. But I guess that's minor compared to Gong Du's weird start position, and at least CA based all the characters on historical ones.
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Re: The Permanent "I’m Leaving/Back Thread"

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:35 am

Interesting. If Rafe says there is ambiguity that's enough for me!
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