Gay and Lesbian Marriage

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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby Erdrick » Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:20 pm

Shikanosuke wrote:
James wrote:
Shikanosuke wrote:The mother should instruct the child that marriage is not entirely analogous with love.

Why would the mother do such a thing?



To be honest and factual with her child. Marriage is not entirely analogous with love, and marriage doesn't even have to include love. Marriage is a civil institution, a formerly religious institution which was codified. Marriage, throughout history, has been many things..but never solely about love. To do otherwise would be to mislead her child about the realities of marriage and all of its implications. Also to let her child know that the reason behind the law may not be to 'outlaw love' at all, or have anything to do with love.



Ironically, it was civil (or pre-civil, depending) before it was religious- and has always been somewhat varied, (given the various "poly"s throughout history). Love, historically, was not as important as aligning with other families, maintaining property, family lineage, etc... It is nowadays though.

Frankly, if people want to get married for any (valid) reason, (I'm not fond of the marriages to beat X, Y or Z system), I don't care how they do their honeymoon thing, or if they need help to procreate, (infertile couples or same-sex), they should be able to be married, (a civil, legal contract, naught more). Individual churches should not be forced to perform or recognize these marriages, but that has nothing to do with allowing them to practice the same rights as hetero couples.

As far as SSUnions, BS- separate but equal just doesn't work.
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby TooMuchBaijiu » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:38 pm

Found a reason to resurrect this thread:

From CNN: "President Barack Obama has ordered the Justice Department to stop defending the constitutionality of the Defense of Marriage Act, which defines marriage for federal purposes as only between a man and woman, according to a statement Wednesday from Attorney General Eric Holder.

White House press secretary Jay Carney said the administration had to make a decision before the court-imposed deadline. He stressed, however, that the law will continue to be enforced.

The Defense of Marriage Act was passed in 1996 by the GOP-controlled Congress and signed into law by President Bill Clinton. It bars federal recognition of same-sex marriages and says states cannot be forced to recognize such marriages from other states.

In July, a federal judge in Massachusetts became the first to rule the law unconstitutional. U.S. District Judge Joseph Tauro said that "irrational prejudice plainly never constitutes a legitimate government interest."
The administration's decision comes on the heels of other major developments in the struggle over gay and lesbian rights. In December, Obama signed legislation that will repeal the controversial "don't ask, don't tell" policy and bring an end to the ban on openly gay men and women serving in the armed forces.

Courts in California are considering a legal challenge to Proposition 8, an initiative narrowly approved by that state's voters in 2008. It defines marriage as a union between a man and a woman.
Same-sex marriage is legal in five states -- Massachusetts, Connecticut, Vermont, Iowa and New Hampshire -- and in the District of Columbia. Civil unions are permitted in New Jersey."

Now, head over to the comment section. Most are applauding the President, either coming out in full support of gay marriage, or that while they are morally against it, they do not wish to force their beliefs on others. Some just think that it's a non-issue, especially with the very real economic and foreign crises the nation is faced with. In any case, most seem happy that the Justice Department is no longer actively defending the constitutionality of a law that's already in place.

After this, head over to the Fox News comment section. If you don't wish to, allow me to sum up the general sentiment there:

"ZOMG!! Obama done went dictatorialismic and turned this grate nashun of my forefadders into Sodom and Gomorrah!"

Where the f--k do these people come from?
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby James » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:22 pm

TooMuchBaijiu wrote:Where the f--k do these people come from?

They've been around for a long time now. And religious opposition to these ideas has been too.
They're the biggest reason why this has become such a difficult thing to change.
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:15 pm

While I don't agree with gay and lesbian marriage nor advocate its establishment, I understand that even from a faith-based perspective -- the scriptures state that as long as the laws of the land don't cause you to sin against GOD then you have no right to rebel against it.

It is the person who chooses to live in that nation afterall. I didn't read or hear anything that stated people who were heterosexual, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc had to get married to someone of the same sex therefore it is not really a matter of debate whether or not this country can do it.

If this country chooses that path and the people want it established, what could one representative of those groups do? Absolutely nothing. You can advocate against it and speak out how it is detrimental to society but, if it is inevitable then live your life how you must and comply with what is necessary.

I haven't seen any major Islamic or Jewish religious groups pushing with fanatisism against it here (unless someone can find information or statistics on this) and that is because they understand that if it doesn't force them to go against their faith then they have no hand in rebellion towards it.

It seems to be more of a radical Christian agenda in my opinion. This country isn't really a religious-state as some would like to protest.
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby agga » Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:00 pm

Zhuanyong wrote:I haven't seen any major Islamic or Jewish religious groups pushing with fanatisism against it here (unless someone can find information or statistics on this) and that is because they understand that if it doesn't force them to go against their faith then they have no hand in rebellion towards it.


i don't think that's the reason. i think the reason is that they (islamic/jewish religious groups) don't have any reason to believe that the public would listen to them if they were to campaign for or against something's moral value to the community. christians of one type or another make up a large majority of americans, jews/muslims account for a percent or two - none of the groups are all that fond of giving one another credit for moral imperatives.
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:25 pm

agga wrote:i don't think that's the reason. i think the reason is that they (islamic/jewish religious groups) don't have any reason to believe that the public would listen to them if they were to campaign for or against something's moral value to the community. christians of one type or another make up a large majority of americans, jews/muslims account for a percent or two - none of the groups are all that fond of giving one another credit for moral imperatives.


I would completely agree with that but, I fall into that group and know people who presented such ideas. While I can see, and probably do agree that collectively that may be the case and it does make sense.

So that aspect is a respectable one, that you mentioned.
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby TooMuchBaijiu » Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:48 pm

Zhuanyong wrote:While I don't agree with gay and lesbian marriage nor advocate its establishment, I understand that even from a faith-based perspective -- the scriptures state that as long as the laws of the land don't cause you to sin against GOD then you have no right to rebel against it.

It is the person who chooses to live in that nation afterall. I didn't read or hear anything that stated people who were heterosexual, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc had to get married to someone of the same sex therefore it is not really a matter of debate whether or not this country can do it.


Well, I can understand that people will object to the idea of gay marriage, and why...what I find incredulous is the amount of hysteria I see surrounding the debate. For example, I don't think we should force anybody to accept it; churches shouldn't have to marry same-sex couples if they don't want to. I just don't see why they should possess this sky-is-falling mentality when others do want to. I'm talking about guys who say silly shit like "Oh, next they'll want to legalize bestiality" and "What if someone wants to marry a nine year old? If we can let two men marry, why shouldn't that be legal?" In-sane.
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:02 am

TooMuchBaijiu wrote:
Well, I can understand that people will object to the idea of gay marriage, and why...what I find incredulous is the amount of hysteria I see surrounding the debate. For example, I don't think we should force anybody to accept it; churches shouldn't have to marry same-sex couples if they don't want to. I just don't see why they should possess this sky-is-falling mentality when others do want to. I'm talking about guys who say silly shit like "Oh, next they'll want to legalize bestiality" and "What if someone wants to marry a nine year old? If we can let two men marry, why shouldn't that be legal?" In-sane.


While I understand, and to a large extent, agree with your distaste of their use of the 'slippery slope' argument. It isn't entirely without merit, however not in the context of hate-mongering they wish to use it. If homosexual marriage is allowed, you can expect to see challenges mounted in support of polygamous unions as well.
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby TooMuchBaijiu » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:26 am

Shikanosuke wrote:While I understand, and to a large extent, agree with your distaste of their use of the 'slippery slope' argument. It isn't entirely without merit, however not in the context of hate-mongering they wish to use it. If homosexual marriage is allowed, you can expect to see challenges mounted in support of polygamous unions as well.


Oh God, I know I'm going to take heat for this...

Honestly, if there is no evidence of coercion and the spouse-to-be is of age and not a blood relation, (and the spouses know their "counterparts" actually exist-no double life situations) I actually do not have a problem with polygamous unions, as long as ties can be made and broken just like a more modern arrangement. Well, that's my opinion from a legal standpoint. Personally I think it's f---ing backward, but I am a strong believer in the philosophy that people who have reached the age of majority should be able to do whatever they want as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others.

But once again, I think anybody who actually wants to do something like this should get their heads checked.

Edit: After some thought, I would probably keep polygamy illegal anyway if it messed with taxation or if, say, a man could marry a woman who would in turn marry another man who is also married to another woman...that situation, while unlikely, could really complicate the legal system.
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:43 am

TooMuchBaijiu wrote:
Shikanosuke wrote:While I understand, and to a large extent, agree with your distaste of their use of the 'slippery slope' argument. It isn't entirely without merit, however not in the context of hate-mongering they wish to use it. If homosexual marriage is allowed, you can expect to see challenges mounted in support of polygamous unions as well.


Oh God, I know I'm going to take heat for this...

Honestly, if there is no evidence of coercion and the spouse-to-be is of age and not a blood relation, (and the spouses know their "counterparts" actually exist-no double life situations) I actually do not have a problem with polygamous unions, as long as ties can be made and broken just like a more modern arrangement. Well, that's my opinion from a legal standpoint. Personally I think it's f---ing backward, but I am a strong believer in the philosophy that people who have reached the age of majority should be able to do whatever they want as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others.

But once again, I think anybody who actually wants to do something like this should get their heads checked.

Edit: After some thought, I would probably keep polygamy illegal anyway if it messed with taxation or if, say, a man could marry a woman who would in turn marry another man who is also married to another woman...that situation, while unlikely, could really complicate the legal system.



While I support the notion of keeping polygamous unions, or any variation of them, illegal I was just noting that that will be the next legal challenge after homosexual unions are legalized.
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