Gay and Lesbian Marriage

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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby Antiochus » Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:19 am

Shikanosuke wrote:Private Life? I thought this proposition was dealing with the ban on marriages, something quite in public sector?

I won't even begin to enter into a debate on the morality of this sort of legislation, partly because in large part I agree the morals which influence people's decision making processes are entirely arbitrary, but it does pose an interesting question. When the state decides they want to embrace the idea of non-neutrality on an issue (something they do anyway, regardless of a supposedly neutral stance) are they acting completely unjust?


I do see it as unjust since we see a large heterosexual majority who decides what is right about a minority on a topic that will not affect the lives of the majority in the slightest. I have yet to hear an argument where someone can demonstrate how gay marriage would be a bad thing for heterosexuals (except religious arguments, which are completely irrelevant to me).
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:06 pm

Antiochus wrote:I do see it as unjust since we see a large heterosexual majority who decides what is right about a minority on a topic


I.e. the situation which has been present since the dawn of man.

that will not affect the lives of the majority in the slightest. I have yet to hear an argument where someone can demonstrate how gay marriage would be a bad thing for heterosexuals (except religious arguments, which are completely irrelevant to me).


Again, I'm not sure how either of you think that just because person A not touching person B directly means that the two do not interact in a social atmosphere.
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby WeiWenDi » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:17 pm

Shikanosuke wrote:Again, I'm not sure how either of you think that just because person A not touching person B directly means that the two do not interact in a social atmosphere.


Well, I can see how this kind of argument could be used in relation to, say, divorce (given that it causes severe fallout among affected children and families and the general social atmosphere around the divorcees), but I'm not seeing where you get to single out homosexual couples as having a more disastrous effect on the social atmosphere than heterosexual couples whose marriage is publicly acknowledged.
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:30 pm

WeiWenDi wrote:
Shikanosuke wrote:Again, I'm not sure how either of you think that just because person A not touching person B directly means that the two do not interact in a social atmosphere.


Well, I can see how this kind of argument could be used in relation to, say, divorce (given that it causes severe fallout among affected children and families and the general social atmosphere around the divorcees), but I'm not seeing where you get to single out homosexual couples as having a more disastrous effect on the social atmosphere than heterosexual couples whose marriage is publicly acknowledged.



You're completely right about divorce. I'm sure we could build a case to encourage people to not get divorces, which is an obviously non-neutral state argument. The state is deciding what kind of life is 'best' to encourage their citizens to embrace. Much as I assume you're reasoning behind that is that a traditional family unit produces more productive and healthy citizens/families. The same can be used for all kinds of social situations be it discouragement of divorce, homosexual marriages, or polygamist families. I guess the question is can or should the government embrace such aims, the aim of course being to decide what kind of life to advocate for their citizens. Its easily dismissed as "no way", but we do it probably more than we think.
Last edited by Shikanosuke on Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby Antiochus » Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:14 pm

Shikanosuke wrote:
I.e. the situation which has been present since the dawn of man.


Yes, and it is not a common sight to see situations change?

Sh*t happens should not be a valid argument.

Again, I'm not sure how either of you think that just because person A not touching person B directly means that the two do not interact in a social atmosphere.


Tell me how it would affect it negatively and I will take time to reevaluate my opinion.
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:54 pm

Antiochus wrote:Yes, and it is not a common sight to see situations change?


Yes, occasionally sights do change. Homosexuals being a minority will not, however.


Tell me how it would affect it negatively and I will take time to reevaluate my opinion.


I don't have to prove it will, I have to prove society thinks it will. That society/government thinks theres a valid point in supporting this proposition. We do it all the time. For instance, we suggest a "neutral" argument that kids who grow up in "traditional" households produce better citizens, and those who grow up in say polygamist households produce unhealthy citizens (because of their environment) and presto we see polygamy illegal. The government sponsors non-neutral stances on issues of how to encourage their citizens to live, even if they lie about it.
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby Ranbir » Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:18 am

Why not just give them civil partnerships and be done with it? Avoid the word marriage and I'm sure everything will become easier. It's not like they can force them to not use the phrase in casual speak.
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby James » Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:20 am

Ranbir wrote:Why not just give them civil partnerships and be done with it? Avoid the word marriage and I'm sure everything will become easier. It's not like they can force them to not use the phrase in casual speak.

My main gripe with civil partnerships is that they do confer imbalanced rights and privileges.
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby Ranbir » Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:23 am

Then get them on balance!
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby James » Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:35 am

Ranbir wrote:Then get them on balance!

For that to happen civil partnerships would have to be offered to men/women as well.

The best solution is same-sex marriage (and removal of civil unions unless equally accessible).
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