Gay and Lesbian Marriage

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Unread postby Dennis » Wed Dec 25, 2002 12:00 am

moshiman wrote:Think of it this way: The more man\man weds there are, the more ppl have to adopt kids. So, if ppl adopted kids, there would be less kids without parents. It's a little twisted way of thinking, but just to look a little optimistic...


That's a totally cool way of looking at it. :)
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Unread postby Xiao Gui » Wed Dec 25, 2002 2:23 am

Sam Da Man wrote:What do you mean they don't flaunt it? What are all those gay parades about? Those 100,000 gays marching in washington d.c..

what problem do you have with those prade. Do you have problem with feminism pardes? Do you find women flaunting the fact that they are women? If you don't find homosexuality a bad thing, you will not find them flaunt it, instead, you will find the parade a healthy and beautiful expression of your sexuality.
Sam Da Man wrote:That is another thing I hate. Religous politics. I believe in god but don't hate ignorantly like alot of them do. My convictions are real and thought through.

I will respect your belief but it makes poor arguements.
Sam Da Man wrote:I don't want them around because I want my family to survive and the people's families I know to survive also. What if I have a son or daughter that is gay? Right then my family line dies. My family line that has survived for thousands and thousands of years gets sweeped away in an instant. How would you feel if everything you were and everything your family has done since the begining of time was about to end? Wouldn't you fight and die to protect it?

.... First I will reword your arguement, you want your family LINE to continue and your genes to be passed on. Will you ever adopt children? If procreation is what you are worried about, you need to concider heterosexual couples who cannot have children before you blame all problem on homosexual couple. What happen if your sons and daughter cannot have children?
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Unread postby Xiao Gui » Wed Dec 25, 2002 2:37 am

James wrote:I consider it abnormal in the sense that it is unnatural (in relation to children). A lesbian couple cannot have children naturally, and neither can two men. Because it cannot happen normally it is, be definition, abnormal. As for the relationship, more power to them.

Do you find relationship between two people who aren't able to procreate unnatural? What happen if you are unable to have kids? Would that define your relationship with your partner unnatural. Lesbian couple can have kids. But only one of the mother or father's gene can be passed on. Much like some heterosexual relationships.

James wrote:I explained why I see it is as abnormal (toss in any other synonym you like) and I would not presume to speak for my nation.

since only you see it this way, why would you think that children of homosexual relationship would think the way you do?

James wrote:Are you saying there is no natural bond between mother and child?
As for the last sentence it is all more complicated like that, and just putting something so complicated it into a single sentence dumbs it down to an excessive level, especially if you think that is the entirety of my beliefs.

Yes I do. But do you belief in the bond between parents and adopted children? Is there natural bond between father and children?
Sorry if you feel offended, I want to point out the problem in your arguement. Children's view of the world and their psychological health has nothing to do with this "natural'" bond between parents and children. Also, the gender quality of the parents has very little to do with the upbringing of the children IF the parents are capable of edcuating their young.
James wrote:I believe it is best to focus on acceptance of the gay community, not to promote their activities. The children will be able to make those decisions for themselves as they grow up. At young ages they are very impressionable. I am not sure if preventing books of this nature is a good or bad thing, I will have to think about it.

You sound like my mother. To remind you that her arguement was thoroughly destroyed, how do you teach children the accept the gay community without telling them what they are?
James wrote:When I use a word it is by the literal definition. As for the children turning out okay, I am not saying it isn’t possible.

Yup, it is defintely possible. hey I am from vancouver, I know planty of people who turned out ok. In fact, I know few who are also participants of this website.
James wrote:It would take a little more than an explanation from the parents. A lot would depend on the child’s own ability to reason his or her way through the differences between their life and that of others. As for their ability to explain something like this to a child in a clear enough manner to properly equip them to problems they will face, I sure hope they are better at explaining serious cultural issues than the typical male/female couple, which is to say not very well.

Well, then the ball in back to the hands of the society and the culture. Those poor homosexual couples and their children....
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Unread postby Xiao Gui » Wed Dec 25, 2002 2:52 am

Wild-Eyes wrote:A child should be raised under both feminine and masculine aspects (yup, Yin/Yang). I feel that if a homosexual couple can provide both of these aspects, they are well off in raising a child. Maybe a person in the relationship is excessively masculine and the other feminine, or better yet, having a person of the opposite sex help raise and mentor the child. It's not the gender roles I'm worried about being passed down -- I'd love to see those disappear into non-existance -- but it's the essences of masculinity and femininity. Any child (no matter who the parents are) should be raised in this kind of a balanced environment. There are hetero couples who shouldn't raise a child, and there are homosexual couples who should.

Same problem are also faced by single mother or single father families. However, such a problem is minor thanks information technology.
Wild-eye wrote:I don't think society is ready yet however for same-sex parenting. It would, indeed, be possible traumatic on a child and their family, with a lot of complications. I think in time, it could become enough of a norm (even if a norm in the minority, like Hispanics in Alaska) that society could get along comfortably past it.

Vancouver is ready and going!!! 8-)
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Unread postby Xiao Gui » Wed Dec 25, 2002 2:58 am

[quote="Sam Da ManThen it wouldn't be their fault. They are just a victim of circumstance. Being able to prevent it though would just be a disgrace. China is a country in which believes in this very much. They have great family values and believe their strength is not in themselves but everyone who has come before them and those who come after. [/quote]
And that destroyed all the chance for technological and humanitarian advances. Parents have kids so they are someone to take care of them when they are old and the kids of kids of they are someone to take care of them when they are old. I am self is a victim to this chauvinistic family value. It has a ugly purpose despite Confusius's attempt to glorify it. Give it few years when China develope pension plan, I say you will see a decline in such a belief.
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Unread postby tao_chi » Wed Dec 25, 2002 3:15 am

Touchy touchy subject to say the least. I have my own beliefs about gays and lesbians that I will not dive greatly into detail. It is rather sad that society will always have some type of minority to pick on no matter what decade we live in. If gays and lesbians want to adopt children then great... however; they must understand and accept the harsh reality that the child they choose to adopt and raise may face some prejudice as a consequence. This prejudice is at best devestating and can scar many children in ways that none of us can really imagine unless we exprienced it ourselves. Being an asian living in western society I have felt some prejudice that I thought would be obsolete in this day and age. This; is of course not the case though. Prejudice; hate; and racism will always exist and will always exist because we are raised to pass judgement and have others pass judgement on us all our lives. This is done thorugh school; work; and even our law system. It is not a matter of weather a child parents are gay; lesbian; straight; divorced; or separated anymore. It is their level of responsibility that affects the children's future. Their responsibility to teach them morals; the difference between right and wrong; and to guide them in them in the right direction. As long children grow up around love (I do not like using this word because it is evolved from a special meaning to almost absolutely nothing meaningful anymore; so assuming I take the first) their childhood experience will be one to cherish. The world is changing at record speeds; and so must our thoughts.
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Unread postby Travis » Wed Dec 25, 2002 3:56 am

Xiao Gui wrote:A great arguer will use more than just "Because bible/god say so" to justify their arugements. Believer of science (which I used to belong) are able to bring out systematic and public arguementation which is publicly verified. My religious professor for example are a great arguer of the faith. Wild-eye for exemple is a great arguer.


I am a devote follower of the Christian God, therefore I need no other reason. Wild-Eyes thus far hasn't argued for any religion, infact she has stated she believes in many things. If I want to argue on the religious aspect of things, I vary well will. Holding your belief in science is a mockery of the faith. The fact is you can't argue faith on grounds of science.

Xiao Gui wrote:My belief is that everyone can't help but to believe in something, but no belief is rational, since rationality itself is a fallacy... Oy, me and my troubled mind.


You said it yourself...

Also there is fine line between debating and insulting, I think you crossed it.
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Unread postby James » Wed Dec 25, 2002 4:45 am

Before I go into today’s replies I would just like to remind everyone that, in this forum, Current Affairs allows intense debate on any subject, we never mod posts for that, but when debate becomes personal we have to draw the line. This reminder is directed at everyone in this forum.

Xiao Gui wrote: Do you find relationship between two people who aren't able to procreate unnatural? What happen if you are unable to have kids? Would that define your relationship with your partner unnatural. Lesbian couple can have kids. But only one of the mother or father's gene can be passed on. Much like some heterosexual relationships.

A male/female relationship is natural and normal. A male/male or female/female relationship is unnatural and abnormal. A male/female relationship in which the couple is unable to have children due to medical complications is abnormal, but not unnatural. There is a significant difference between the terms unnatural and abnormal.

Xiao Gui wrote: since only you see it this way, why would you think that children of homosexual relationship would think the way you do?

a) I am not alone in this opinion, far from it.
b) I go off thoughts and observations from people who live in or grew up in a situation like this. I have met several. I would not presume to know everything about it, but then again to the best of my knowledge nobody here but someone who grew up in that situation is qualified.

Xiao Gui wrote: Yes I do. But do you belief in the bond between parents and adopted children? Is there natural bond between father and children?

I am going strictly off observation here, and everything I have seen is a strong indication. Stepparents that come into relationships are often times not as close as the true parents would be (in many cases they are far from it) and this gets worse if they come into a family later. As for there being a bond between father and child, my answer to that is also yes. Even if the adoptive parents have a strong bond with the child, the young fellow himself/herself often times is faced with a very serious challenge. I won’t deny that they will be many times better off than if they were never adopted into a caring family.

Xiao Gui wrote: Sorry if you feel offended, I want to point out the problem in your arguement. Children's view of the world and their psychological health has nothing to do with this "natural'" bond between parents and children. Also, the gender quality of the parents has very little to do with the upbringing of the children IF the parents are capable of edcuating their young.

I don’t think you are capable of truly offending me, so no worries there. I present the bond as a possible cause for the fact that children adopted into good families tend to face more social and psychological troubles than children who grow up in their original families, but I am not saying it is the only cause. The two issues need not be interdependent in order to be debated here.

Xiao Gui wrote: You sound like my mother. To remind you that her arguement was thoroughly destroyed, how do you teach children the accept the gay community without telling them what they are?

A person need not live the gay/lesbian life to learn acceptance and tolerance.
Please don’t compare me to other people.

Xiao Gui wrote: Yup, it is defintely possible. hey I am from vancouver, I know planty of people who turned out ok. In fact, I know few who are also participants of this website.

As do I.

Xiao Gui wrote: Well, then the ball in back to the hands of the society and the culture. Those poor homosexual couples and their children....

True acceptance and tolerance of this will not occur until society, culture, and religion accept the fact that not everyone is the same person.
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Unread postby Xiao Gui » Wed Dec 25, 2002 6:38 am

James wrote:A male/female relationship is natural and normal. A male/male or female/female relationship is unnatural and abnormal. A male/female relationship in which the couple is unable to have children due to medical complications is abnormal, but not unnatural. There is a significant difference between the terms unnatural and abnormal.

HA! but what is unnatural and abnorma. Human are far from being natural, and humans has being seperated from nature more than two thousand years. There is no such thing is unnatural and natural. Normality is a bad bad word. It is hypocritical of us to use the work 'normal' in a society that values individuality. With these two words out of the way, I see nothing wrong with homosexual relationship. I don't think itz very nice to the people you categorize into abnormal and unnatural.
I am going strictly off observation here, and everything I have seen is a strong indication. Stepparents that come into relationships are often times not as close as the true parents would be (in many cases they are far from it) and this gets worse if they come into a family later. As for there being a bond between father and child, my answer to that is also yes. Even if the adoptive parents have a strong bond with the child, the young fellow himself/herself often times is faced with a very serious challenge. I won’t deny that they will be many times better off than if they were never adopted into a caring family.

Your observation(and the story of the cinderalla) is a common sterotype, although I do sometime see differences in caring and problem with adoption. I know planty of kids who turnned out wonderfully. Nevertheless, problem of stepparents and adoption should not be the reason to think children specifically of the homosexual couples would have problem (especially sperm banks and surrogate mothers is a more common source of offspring for these couples)
I don’t think you are capable of truly offending me, so no worries there.

I like you already.
A person need not live the gay/lesbian life to learn acceptance and tolerance.

You misunderstand me. To understand them does not mean living their life. For example, once upon a time, there was a family of three bears. Two mother bare and one little bear.... wonderful little story.
True acceptance and tolerance of this will not occur until society, culture, and religion accept the fact that not everyone is the same person.

I agree with you and I add that education is the key.
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Unread postby James » Wed Dec 25, 2002 7:40 am

Xiao Gui wrote:HA! but what is unnatural and abnorma. Human are far from being natural, and humans has being seperated from nature more than two thousand years. There is no such thing is unnatural and natural. Normality is a bad bad word. It is hypocritical of us to use the work 'normal' in a society that values individuality. With these two words out of the way, I see nothing wrong with homosexual relationship. I don't think itz very nice to the people you categorize into abnormal and unnatural.

When I say “unnatural” or “abnormal” I am not comparing humans to other life on the planet, I am comparing humans to humans. So thus, any unnatural or abnormal traits of humanity become normal in this context.

I have nothing against the relationships.

Please look up the word “hypocritical”.

Xiao Gui wrote:Your observation(and the story of the cinderalla) is a common sterotype, although I do sometime see differences in caring and problem with adoption. I know planty of kids who turnned out wonderfully. Nevertheless, problem of stepparents and adoption should not be the reason to think children specifically of the homosexual couples would have problem (especially sperm banks and surrogate mothers is a more common source of offspring for these couples)

It is difficult to find a fairly experienced child psychologist that will say a child to a same-sex relationship will not face significant social challenges. My observations and feedback I have received from people in the situation have only reinforced my view.

Xiao Gui wrote:You misunderstand me. To understand them does not mean living their life. For example, once upon a time, there was a family of three bears. Two mother bare and one little bear.... wonderful little story.

Perhaps I should explain my view on this. I am not fond of educating children in extremes, but rather I am fond of educating them in balance. If you educate a child in balance they will not hold as biased a view when they grow up and thus they will be able to view everything from a neutral ground. This includes beating a child because he won’t go to church and things like that too. Teaching extremes rather than the norm seems a little like brainwashing to me.

-------------------

At this point I would like to point out that I am not comfortable with my stance in this debate. I am not opposed to gays or lesbians at all. I am not opposed specifically to children being adopted into that relationship. In fact, from a legal standpoint I would support it because I would vote in favor of equal rights. My only concerns is that personally I am uncomfortable with a child being raised in a relationship that isn’t through normal parents, but I guess in a sense it counters out because they would be adopting. They wouldn’t be getting children that have the option to stay with their biological parents. Actually, I am surprised none of you brought that up in debate earlier.

Basically, I feel like my stance sounds a little like gay/lesbian hating, and that is not who I am.
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