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marriage is a problem, from a political perspective.

Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2002 11:59 pm
by tao_chi
Ok, I think what the real issues under gay and lesbian marriage is political; financial; and really has very little to do with religion. However religion seems to be the reason that everyone seems to be hiding behind for their actions. The reason why gay and lesbian mariagge is having trouble gaining legality in North America I think greatly has to do with financial and immigration implications. What is to stop 2 friends (both hetoralsexual males) from getting married in order to pay less taxes if both them were planning to remain single the rest of their lives? What if I were to marry a Chinese guy just because he wanted to be allowed in the country and was willing to pay me 50 K US? I know this already happens (female/male) because it is the only way, but if gay/lesbian marriage becomes lawful it can cause a lot problems and greatly increase frequency. Until the laws can deal with the many loopholes that gay/lesbian marriages can possibly create, it will not be norm in near future.

Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2002 12:00 am
by James
Xiao Gui wrote:what exactly is the problem for a child to grow up with different combination of parents?

They do not get the chance to function in a normal family. Both the father and mother, their unique factors aside, provide children with different examples, many of which are natural or instinct. It is also important for the child to grow up without a strange situation which society will shun them for; the potential for damage is quite present. Everywhere in nature a certain defined role of parenthood is present and the youth, in relationships that are managed by both parents, learn how to function in normal society.

Humanity is no different. It is possible to attack society here and say that the child doesn’t need to have the benefit of growing up in a normal family, but the child may disagree with you.

As I said, I have nothing against the marriage, but I do believe it is best for a child to grow up in a normal family of the original mother and father. Divorce and death are also destructive factors to a child, but generally they aren’t planned in a healthy relationship.

Edit: I am not saying yet that adopting a child into a bond like this should be illegal, I am saying that I personally do not like it. I haven’t formed a solid enough opinion to think it should be law.

Re: marriage is a problem, from a political perspective.

Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2002 12:07 am
by James
tao_chi wrote:... What if I were to marry a Chinese guy just because he wanted to be allowed in the country and was willing to pay me 50 K US? I know this already happens (female/male) because it is the only way, but if gay/lesbian marriage becomes lawful it can cause a lot problems and greatly increase frequency. Until the laws can deal with the many loopholes that gay/lesbian marriages can possibly create, it will not be norm in near future.

That is a very good point. After thought though, I still don’t desire to oppose it. For those same-sex couples that really love each other, be it social pressures, a DNA error, or some sort of personal choice, I don’t see why we should prevent them from doing what they desire. It isn’t like we are going to have an increase in gay/lesbian members of society; it is a factor that has been present in all civilizations.

As for the potential economical damage, it is interesting to think about. I do think it would be lessened by society. Heterosexual members of our culture will generally be quite uninterested in doing this for money; it doesn’t take much for us to learn that companionship is more important than wealth. Also, in a sense, isn’t the act of denying them the benefits of normal marriage, if they were allowed to enter such a bond, a bias?

Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2002 12:49 am
by Sam Da Man
I just see it as being wrong altogether. People weren't meant to have sexual relations with someone who is of the same sex. You don't put things in the outholes and you put things in the inholes. God didn't meant for it to be like that and evolution did not mean for it to be like that.(whichever you choose to follow).

It is a perversion of nature and is not right. I feel it is ok for them to do whatever they want but I don't want them going around flaunting it and influencing people around me.

It never really hit america until after the second world war. When they came to europe they integrated it into their lives and brought it back to america. Then it spread when people started to accept. If it wasn't accepted then it would not have spread the way it is now(they should have the freedom to do what they want, only I don't want to hear anything about it).

Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2002 12:56 am
by Xiao Gui
James wrote:They do not get the chance to function in a normal family.

Do you concider heterosexual couple normal and homosexual couple abnormal?
Let's discuss this word 'normal': conforming to a standard; regular, usual, and typical. What is normal can change from culture to culture and generations to generations. A long time ago, its normal for women to stay at home and take care of children and it is not normal for women to work. You can say children growing up in an abnormal family like that would have tramatic psychological impact. Should we blame the society for being chauvenicstic or force the mother to not work?
I think it is hypocritical for North America, a place where individuality is greatly value, to use the word 'normal' to demoralize anything different from them. To me, nomality is worse than mediocrity.
James wrote: Both the father and mother, their unique factors aside, provide children with different examples, many of which are natural or instinct.

Humans have no instincts. This is a scientifically proven fact. Mothers and fathers have no unique factors besides that one has breast and one as penius. By saying children's perception of the world solely is based on the sex of the parents, you don't give too much room for parenting and education.
James wrote:It is also important for the child to grow up without a strange situation which society will shun them for; the potential for damage is quite present.

Again, should have educate the public and stop banning children's book that depict same sex marriage. (oh you didn't know they do that? Every province and states ban children's book that depicts samesex parents due to pressures from the religious parents, except for BC)
James wrote:Everywhere in nature a certain defined role of parenthood is present and the youth, in relationships that are managed by both parents, learn how to function in normal society.

Again what is nature? What is natural? Humans are far from that. It is not natural what we drink coke. and do not limited parents ability to educate their children to mere their sex. I personally knows three brothers raised by two father. They turn out more than just fine (and good looking).
James wrote:Humanity is no different. It is possible to attack society here and say that the child doesn’t need to have the benefit of growing up in a normal family, but the child may disagree with you.

If you are concerned that children would come home oneday crying that everybody has one mother and one father but I have two dadies, I believe the parents of this child would have educate their children on this issue and the school should also bring in materials to educate other children. Do not blame society's problems on the poor same sex couples. :evil:

Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2002 1:02 am
by Xiao Gui
Sam Da Man wrote:I just see it as being wrong altogether. People weren't meant to have sexual relations with someone who is of the same sex. You don't put things in the outholes and you put things in the inholes. God didn't meant for it to be like that and evolution did not mean for it to be like that.(whichever you choose to follow).
It is a perversion of nature and is not right. I feel it is ok for them to do whatever they want but I don't want them going around flaunting it and influencing people around me.


You talk about homosexuality as if itz a disease.
Ah you say God? Then I will respect your opinion. But I find no perversion in homosexuality. People of relgion find it a perversion. Also, I don't find homosexual people flaunting their homosexuality. In fact I find religious people, especially catholicism, going around damning homosexuality to hell and banning children's book. (In fact, they damn many things)

Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2002 1:22 am
by Sam Da Man
Xiao Gui wrote:
Sam Da Man wrote:I just see it as being wrong altogether. People weren't meant to have sexual relations with someone who is of the same sex. You don't put things in the outholes and you put things in the inholes. God didn't meant for it to be like that and evolution did not mean for it to be like that.(whichever you choose to follow).
It is a perversion of nature and is not right. I feel it is ok for them to do whatever they want but I don't want them going around flaunting it and influencing people around me.


You talk about homosexuality as if itz a disease.
Ah you say God? Then I will respect your opinion. But I find no perversion in homosexuality. People of relgion find it a perversion. Also, I don't find homosexual people flaunting their homosexuality. In fact I find religious people, especially catholicism, going around damning homosexuality to hell and banning children's book. (In fact, they damn many things)


What do you mean they don't flaunt it? What are all those gay parades about? Those 100,000 gays marching in washington d.c..

That is another thing I hate. Religous politics. I believe in god but don't hate ignorantly like alot of them do. My convictions are real and thought through.

I don't want them around because I want my family to survive and the people's families I know to survive also. What if I have a son or daughter that is gay? Right then my family line dies. My family line that has survived for thousands and thousands of years gets sweeped away in an instant. How would you feel if everything you were and everything your family has done since the begining of time was about to end? Wouldn't you fight and die to protect it?

Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2002 1:30 am
by Travis
[quote=Tao Chi] Ok, I think what the real issues under gay and lesbian marriage is political; financial; and really has very little to do with religion. However religion seems to be the reason that everyone seems to be hiding behind for their actions. [/quote]

I hide behind nothing. I said more "power to ya" as long as you don't claim to be a Christian. If you do, you are just slapping God in the face in blatant defiance.

Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2002 1:40 am
by James
Xiao Gui wrote:Do you concider heterosexual couple normal and homosexual couple abnormal?
Let's discuss this word 'normal': conforming to a standard; regular, usual, and typical. What is normal can change from culture to culture and generations to generations. A long time ago, its normal for women to stay at home and take care of children and it is not normal for women to work. You can say children growing up in an abnormal family like that would have tramatic psychological impact. Should we blame the society for being chauvenicstic or force the mother to not work?

I consider it abnormal in the sense that it is unnatural (in relation to children). A lesbian couple cannot have children naturally, and neither can two men. Because it cannot happen normally it is, be definition, abnormal. As for the relationship, more power to them.

Xiao Gui wrote:I think it is hypocritical for North America, a place where individuality is greatly value, to use the word 'normal' to demoralize anything different from them. To me, nomality is worse than mediocrity.

I have already pointed out that I have absolutely nothing wrong with the relationships. I am talking about the children here. I explained why I see it is as abnormal (toss in any other synonym you like) and I would not presume to speak for my nation.

Xiao Gui wrote:Humans have no instincts. This is a scientifically proven fact. Mothers and fathers have no unique factors besides that one has breast and one as penius. By saying children's perception of the world solely is based on the sex of the parents, you don't give too much room for parenting and education.

Are you saying there is no natural bond between mother and child?
I don’t care what science has to say on this, and I haven’t seen the study anyway.
As for the last sentence it is all more complicated like that, and just putting something so complicated it into a single sentence dumbs it down to an excessive level, especially if you think that is the entirety of my beliefs.

Xiao Gui wrote:Again, should have educate the public and stop banning children's book that depict same sex marriage. (oh you didn't know they do that? Every province and states ban children's book that depicts samesex parents due to pressures from the religious parents, except for BC)

I believe it is best to focus on acceptance of the gay community, not to promote their activities. The children will be able to make those decisions for themselves as they grow up. At young ages they are very impressionable. I am not sure if preventing books of this nature is a good or bad thing, I will have to think about it.

Xiao Gui wrote:Again what is nature? What is natural? Humans are far from that. It is not natural what we drink coke. and do not limited parents ability to educate their children to mere their sex. I personally knows three brothers raised by two father. They turn out more than just fine (and good looking).

When I use a word it is by the literal definition. As for the children turning out okay, I am not saying it isn’t possible.

Xiao Gui wrote:If you are concerned that children would come home oneday crying that everybody has one mother and one father but I have two dadies, I believe the parents of this child would have educate their children on this issue and the school should also bring in materials to educate other children. Do not blame society's problems on the poor same sex couples. :evil:

It would take a little more than an explanation from the parents. A lot would depend on the child’s own ability to reason his or her way through the differences between their life and that of others. As for their ability to explain something like this to a child in a clear enough manner to properly equip them to problems they will face, I sure hope they are better at explaining serious cultural issues than the typical male/female couple, which is to say not very well.

Unread postPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2002 1:42 am
by James
Taishi Ci wrote:I hide behind nothing. I said more "power to ya" as long as you don't claim to be a Christian. If you do, you are just slapping God in the face in blatant defiance.

Is it fair for a faith to tell their members to be someone they aren’t? If there were a single divine being over everything, I would suspect he would be much more understanding than this.