Gay and Lesbian Marriage

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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby bodidley » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:22 pm

DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:I consider it trolling because people will argue what they themselves don't believe just for the sake of argument.

To me, a debate is about getting something done, and Devil's Advocate is the opposite of that.


It's not arguing something you don't believe, it's acknowledging that you don't already know everything and exploring other possibilities.

Now, if you think that a debate is about getting something done, you should define what it is you want done. I imagine you mean to convince others of your opinion, rather than expand the depth of your own understanding. That's fine, but to convince others truly, you need to be able to show them the excellence of your reasoning. Emotional appeals can also sway people, but that's really manipulation rather than conviction. Appeals to authority also sway people, but they are also manipulation rather than logic.

If your goal is to force people to go along with you, then you're better off using violence rather than debate. Violence comes in many forms, in fact it comes in the form of social or structural violence more often than it comes in the form of physical violence and we are subjected to it every day from childhood. Go to school, shut up, listen to the teacher, it's good for you. Don't speak out of turn. That opinion is bad, because I'm the grown-up and I say so. The grown-up in the room knows everything, even more than your parents. The grown-up in the room has the right to decide whether or not you will be given the opportunities to pursue your dreams when you grow up. The grown-up in the room will punish uncouth behavior. That's OK, because it's for your own good, because I say so. Later in life, people who are uncouth or who do not perform the specific set of tasks assigned to them will be punished. People who drink in public or make unacceptable noises or doing anything else unhealthy or uncouth will be reprimanded, or have their possessions taken away or be put in chains by armed men because it's for their own good, or the good of society. If we're saying it's for the good of society, that infers that we cannot make the claim that it's for the good of the individual but that it's for the good of others. And if that's so, then that means that it's for the detriment of one and the profit of another. But that's OK too, because it's fair.

The reason you get upset with people that disagree with you or think outside your existing ideas is because it gives you an unpleasant feeling when they do. We can call it fear, but it's not the same kind of intimate fear people get in response to imminent physical harm. Nonetheless, it's an irrational response to a perceived threat. What really threatens you is not their opinion, but the fact that they have an opinion at all. They think for themselves rather than just doing what other people tell them to do. Most people reach their opinions socially rather than rationally, it's true. Perhaps that's human nature and can never be resolved. However, you take it a step further by demanding that other people comply with you unquestioningly, potentially to their detriment if they do not. This is not because you believe your opinions are better; you don't have any opinions. Everything you think is something someone else has said that you deem socially acceptable. It's normal that you can't empathize with people that think for themselves if you've never done it. You're a radical conformist.
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby DreamGoddessLindsey » Wed Sep 24, 2014 6:55 pm

Not at all.

What I want done is true equality. I want, as a lesbian, all the same rights straight people have. To me, when people say we shouldn't have such rights, it is absolutely a personal affront and contrary to all the values (freedom and equality) this country is supposed to be based on. Another reason I hate the United States. Wish I could move to Canada or the UK.
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:35 pm

DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:Not at all.

What I want done is true equality. I want, as a lesbian, all the same rights straight people have. To me, when people say we shouldn't have such rights, it is absolutely a personal affront and contrary to all the values (freedom and equality) this country is supposed to be based on.


Some folks don't either consider it a right in the context you're speaking or believe you already do possess such rights.

Another reason I hate the United States. Wish I could move to Canada or the UK.


You're free to leave.
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:46 pm

She might be free to leave the US but it's not free for her to enter another country so that's not completely true.
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby DreamGoddessLindsey » Thu Sep 25, 2014 6:20 pm

Thanks, Sun Fin. Absolutely right. I'm disabled and on SSI. No other country would allow me to move in and be a citizen because the immigration rules for other countries are clear in that you must be able to contribute something significant. Oh, and moving across country costs $5000, so I can't imagine what moving across the ocean would cost.

In other words, I have nowhere else to go.
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:02 pm

DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:Thanks, Sun Fin. Absolutely right. I'm disabled and on SSI. No other country would allow me to move in and be a citizen because the immigration rules for other countries are clear in that you must be able to contribute something significant.


I'd like to think that disabled individuals have something to contribute to any society.

Oh, and moving across country costs $5000, so I can't imagine what moving across the ocean would cost.In other words, I have nowhere else to go.


I can't speak to your specific needs, but I've known many people to travel across the country for significantly less. But I assume our difference would be in what we constitute as 'move'.
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby DreamGoddessLindsey » Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:45 am

Immigration officials would disagree with you according to everything I've read on trying to move to Canada or the UK. In any event, I would have zero income because, as I'm not a citizen of those countries, I wouldn't be able to get government aid. The world is awful and cruel.
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Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby Shikanosuke » Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:28 am

DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:Immigration officials would disagree with you according to everything I've read on trying to move to Canada or the UK.


Perhaps. I guess it depends on what contribute means. I'd wager Stephen Hawkings qualifies as 100% disabled as well.


In any event, I would have zero income because, as I'm not a citizen of those countries, I wouldn't be able to get government aid. The world is awful and cruel.


The world is awful and cruel because it won't give you money ? Or the world is awful and cruel because of your lot in life ? I don't want to misattribute your meaning here.
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:08 pm

No country would deny Hawking due to the bad PR among other things.

I don't think the idea that one can leave your own country works most of the time. As has been said, the other country needs to accept you and if your not a refugee then they will want something from you. They want the rich or those that fill certain needs (like builders in the 90's and early 2000's in the UK or NHS staff). Failing that, they want the young and healthy who won't be much of a burden on their health-care system and can provide energy/kids. Being disabled, given the cost the government fears that will incur, is not going to help an applicant.

A disabled, unemployed author is not going to have much luck getting a country to take them in.
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Re: Gay and Lesbian Marriage

Unread postby DreamGoddessLindsey » Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:19 pm

Shikanosuke wrote:The world is awful and cruel because it won't give you money ? Or the world is awful and cruel because of your lot in life ? I don't want to misattribute your meaning here.


Both.

This is why I'm a Socialist and will always be. As someone on the bottom, I see personally how horrendous the poor are treated. As Marx said "From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs." I believe in that 1000%. I would never even consider anything else as viable because I feel that people deserve to have a decent standard of living and that no one should be homeless or go hungry.

Just because I'm disabled doesn't mean I should be left and forgotten and abandoned. That is one of the most dramatic evils that could happen, and it's why I despise Republicans.
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